Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

bloomberg.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

31–40 of 73 posts

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#31

Post by tacticus »

13of40 wrote: post #10
taneq wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just realise that a 1.9kg toy should be ignored rather than evaded. What happens if a goose or swan or pelican flies near a helicopter?

Here's what happens when a Blackhawk hits one with it's rotor: https://petapixel.com/2018/01/02/dji-drone-collided-us-army-... How much do you think that cost to replace? I love my drone as much as the next guy, but someone who flies one next to a helicopter with people in it needs to go to jail. Edit: Here's a main rotor for an R-44 for $47,000... https://m.ebay.com/itm/R44-Robinson-Helicopter-Main-Rotor-Bl...

Also a black hawks blades are probably going to be significantly stronger than those on an r44.

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#32

Post by cmurf »

13of40 wrote: post #10
taneq wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just realise that a 1.9kg toy should be ignored rather than evaded. What happens if a goose or swan or pelican flies near a helicopter?

Here's what happens when a Blackhawk hits one with it's rotor: https://petapixel.com/2018/01/02/dji-drone-collided-us-army-... How much do you think that cost to replace? I love my drone as much as the next guy, but someone who flies one next to a helicopter with people in it needs to go to jail. Edit: Here's a main rotor for an R-44 for $47,000... https://m.ebay.com/itm/R44-Robinson-Helicopter-Main-Rotor-Bl...

That's serious damage. I'm a pilot but not an engineer, I would not fly an aircraft with that kind of damage without A&P consult, and there's a decent chance only ferry flight would be legal if it were flight worthy at all.

The centrifugal force stress at the hub (root) of a blade is thousands of times the weight of the blade. Easily there's tens to hundreds of tons of force "trying" to pull the blade apart and this not so little nick, makes that much more likely to succeed.

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#33

Post by ryanmarsh »

I get the feeling the pilots (recreational) in my area really don’t like drones. I file my flight plans electronically and, maybe this is coincidental but, every time I file a flight plan a small aircraft will apear right overhead flying low within a few minutes. It happens every time. Sometimes multiple aircraft will arrive and buzz me.

I of course have to stay under 400 feet but get this, those pilots are often flying at right around 400. I don’t know what’s going on but it’s weird. I plan to monitor the radio traffic in the area next time if I can find a way to do that.

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#34

Post by cmurf »

mbrameld wrote: post #28
taneq wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Or just realise that a 1.9kg toy should be ignored rather than evaded. What happens if a goose or swan or pelican flies near a helicopter?

Helicopter pilot here. We take evasive action. In forward flight that's probably going to be a quick stop to give me time to see what the bird's doing and then flying away from the bird. If I were working on hovering maneuvers and a large bird flew near I would set down until it left.

Airplane pilot here. I suspect there's enough noise and downwash/turbulence that a bird doesn't get anywhere particularly close to a hovering helicopter.

If the drone is clearly outside the radius of the main rotor, you'd set down. What if it's above the rotor coming toward you? Probably set down and hope it doesn't get sucked in? What if it's below the main rotor coming toward you? You may not want to set down unless you know (?) the downwash is something the drone can't put up with, but how much time are you going to have to decide whether to risk striking it with a rotor vs throttle up delay and ascending away from the drone?

I think the behavior of various sized drones in proximity to helicopters is going to become a necessary training item. There will be planned and unplanned close proximity of s/mUAS and the worst enemy is going to be having never thought of or discussed these operational what ifs.

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#35

Post by Pyxl101 »

thaumaturgy wrote: post #16
bri3d wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I was making an unfair inference about the pilot's mental state, so I removed it. With that being said I still strongly question the relation of the drone to the crash physically and believe the effect of the drone on the pilot's decision-making is the interesting part of this story. Landing as an evasive maneuver doesn't make a lot of sense to me and the actual cause of the crash seems to be a situational awareness…

I wish people wouldn't armchair-quarterback people in situations that are (likely) completely outside of their experience. I've gone through some helicopter safety training for SAR, and been picked up and dropped off by a UH-60. The pilots spend a lot of time briefing us on all of the things they are nervous about, and there are a lot of things that they're nervous about. All of our gear has to be tight and secure. D…

That first video looked terrifying. Is the cable also twisting and tangling while that’s happening, or is the litter spinning freely around it?

Edit: I was expecting it to stop twisting and begin turning the other way, like string that I've played with, but it just ... never did. I can't imagine the tension that would put into the cable.

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#36

Post by thaumaturgy »

Pyxl101 wrote: post #35
thaumaturgy wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wish people wouldn't armchair-quarterback people in situations that are (likely) completely outside of their experience. I've gone through some helicopter safety training for SAR, and been picked up and dropped off by a UH-60. The pilots spend a lot of time briefing us on all of the things they are nervous about, and there are a lot of things that they're nervous about. All of our gear has to be tight and secure. D…

That first video looked terrifying. Is the cable also twisting and tangling while that’s happening, or is the litter spinning freely around it? Edit: I was expecting it to stop twisting and begin turning the other way, like string that I've played with, but it just ... never did. I can't imagine the tension that would put into the cable.

Yeah, I don't enjoy roller coasters, that would not have been my favorite SAR experience.

Assuming they connected it in the usual way, it would have been twisting, but not so much tangling. It might tangle once everything was on the ground and the tension was off the line. I don't know what the hoist line material is; I'd guess a kernmantle of some kind but I'm probably wrong.

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#37

Post by rpeden »

bri3d wrote: post #7
woofyman wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Flight instructor saw a drone during low-altitude hovering exercises with a student, panicked, tried to land, and hit a bush The pilot didn’t panic. The drone was directly in front of the helicopter.

I was making an unfair inference about the pilot's mental state, so I removed it. With that being said I still strongly question the relation of the drone to the crash physically and believe the effect of the drone on the pilot's decision-making is the interesting part of this story. Landing as an evasive maneuver doesn't make a lot of sense to me and the actual cause of the crash seems to be a situational awareness…

To be fair, though, making evasive maneuvers to avoid a drone isn't irrational. If the drone hit the tail rotor, it could have caused the pilot to lost control.

Not long ago, a Hydro One helicopter crashed and killed four people after a tool bag came loose and hit the tail rotor [1]. It's likely that this tool bag was significantly heavier than a drone, but if you're keeping incidents like that one in mind while flying and you see a drone in your path, it's probably rational to try to evade it immediately rather than trying to decide in real-time whether the drone is massive enough to cause damage.

[1] https://www.thestar.com/news/canada/2017/12/21/unsecured-too...

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#38

Post by axau »

I hope one day drones are regulated similarly to guns, i.e. de facto banned unless some exception applies, such as:

- you're in the middle of nowhere

- you're doing it exclusively on a property you own (and the property is large enough)

- the use case is in the public good (e.g.: police can use guns)

In other cases, the downsides are large given potential for abuse/voyeurism/sabotage, and upsides seem nil.

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#39

Post by wvenable »

axau wrote: post #38

I hope one day drones are regulated similarly to guns, i.e. de facto banned unless some exception applies, such as: - you're in the middle of nowhere - you're doing it exclusively on a property you own (and the property is large enough) - the use case is in the public good (e.g.: police can use guns) In other cases, the downsides are large given potential for abuse/voyeurism/sabotage, and upsides seem nil.

> I hope one day drones are regulated similarly to guns

What country are you in?

Re: What May Be U.S.’s First Drone-Linked Aircraft Crash Is Being Investigated

#40

Post by wvenable »

newdayrising wrote: post #23

I've been wondering this for a long time - what's to stop a terrorist from flying and attaching a drone with an explosive payload to a large commercial flight? Especially at night while the plane is taxiing?

The weight of the payload.
Post reply on HN