Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#781

Post by fjsolwmv » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 10:41 PM UTC

tclancy wrote: post #276

Consultant32452 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the progressive left THRUST Damore and anyone who might have similar thoughts/questions into the welcoming arms of the alt-right. I'm disappointed with the "Goolag" t-shirts, but he did lose his livelihood, had his professional reputation destroyed, and only a limited time to cash out. So this socially awkward nerd did what any sensible person would do, rode the wave that was sent his way the best he coul…

He has no agency? He chose to speak up and then he chose to go down the path he did. It is an impressive feat of mental gymnastics to both kinda sorta acknowledge the alt-right might not be a great group of guys but then also claim Damore had no choice but to pull into that port in a storm of his own making. Allow me to pour out a beaker of Soylent for the poor, downtrodden white man.

Your crypto racism would slide by more easily if you weren't do explicit in your closing.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#782

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 10:48 PM UTC

fjsolwmv wrote: post #778

ianamartin wrote: post #660

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My mother's college roommate went to work for NASA and worked on the Apollo projects starting in the 50s. Programming at that time was all women, and it was definitely seen as menial work. The literal astrophysicists and computer scientists were doing the "real" work, and the women were "just punching cards." That wasn't the reality of it, of course. Those women were doing massive amounts of the work around the logic…

No one is saying programming with Punch cards isn't programming. They are saying that transcribing paper into punchcards and running them through the computer isn't programming, any more than typing in code is programming. Someone who writes code that they or others put into the machine, is programming

Sure, but the scientists at NASA didn't write code. They wrote down the computations that needed to be carried out and the women who punched the cards had to turn them into programs. And as we all know, transfering a formula to code and making it run efficiently is not trivial, even if you're working with a language "well suited" for the task like FORTRAN (which I'm going to bet was on the punched cards the OP's friend was editing).

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#783

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 10:58 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #571

ThomPete wrote: post #560

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As a profession, there is hardly a better one to be in for women. It's one of the highest paid, most flexible and equal opportunity professions there are. All the biggest tech companies go out of their way to encourage women to the point where they favor women rather than men. What industry does better when you look at it on a whole? No one is claiming it's perfect but it's hardly filled with clowns IMO.

Law. Medicine. Accounting. And yes, our entire profession is clownish. We produce shitty, unreliable software using ad-hoc methods no two teams agree about, our management processes are folkloric, our hiring procedures random. At the very peak of our profession, on teams building the most important and widely used software, we are at best working around those problems.

And yes, our entire profession is clownish. We produce shitty, unreliable software using ad-hoc methods no two teams agree about, our management processes are folkloric, our hiring procedures random.

In other words, it's exactly the kind of milieu which runs off of ideology, and is ripe for ideological hysteria. I mean, what in the heck do we think language flamewars are?

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#784

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:02 PM UTC

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #773

stcredzero wrote: post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it flags Damore's interpretation of science as squishy and ideological. The 55-country study he cited has effectively one of the highest P-values in social science of recent years. It's widely considered in psychology to be an important result. Denying this is basically parroting intellectual dishonesty on the level of Global Warming denialism. The Big-5 personality traits he cited are the strongest results…

>> The 55-country study he cited has effectively one of the highest P-values in social science of recent years. It's widely considered in psychology to be an important result. Denying this is basically parroting intellectual dishonesty on the level of Global Warming denialism. Of course it is not and I take umbrage at the offensive undertone of your comment ("parroting"? Really?). Psychology is not climate science, i…

Of course it is not and I take umbrage at the offensive undertone of your comment ("parroting"? Really?). Psychology is not climate science, it's currently going through a widely publicised reproducibility crisis and in any case, the reliance on p-values has been criticised widely by experts in fields as varied as economics, medicine and of course the humanities. The big-5 model itself has been the subject of much criticism, from inside the field (and the wikipedia article you reference has a big section devoted to that criticism).

So you're admitting that James Damore is referencing legitimate scientific sources. It's just that you're claiming the whole field isn't valid. Then you go on to make unsubstantiated claims that his interpretations are wrong, but you produce no specifics. That sounds a lot like what climate science deniers do.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#785

Post by [deleted] » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:09 PM UTC

on_and_off wrote: post #208

rendall wrote: post #103

Did the NLRB memo specify exactly which statements in Damore's memo were discriminatory and hostile? Is there a copy available?

yes : https://www.nlrb.gov/case/32-CA-205351 you can also find the full damore memo online.

[deleted]

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#786

Post by tptacek » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:11 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #784

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The 55-country study he cited has effectively one of the highest P-values in social science of recent years. It's widely considered in psychology to be an important result. Denying this is basically parroting intellectual dishonesty on the level of Global Warming denialism. Of course it is not and I take umbrage at the offensive undertone of your comment ("parroting"? Really?). Psychology is not climate science, i…

Of course it is not and I take umbrage at the offensive undertone of your comment ("parroting"? Really?). Psychology is not climate science, it's currently going through a widely publicised reproducibility crisis and in any case, the reliance on p-values has been criticised widely by experts in fields as varied as economics, medicine and of course the humanities. The big-5 model itself has been the subject of much cr…

I don't think that is a very fair summary of that comment, which was considerably more detailed than the one that preceded it.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#787

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:13 PM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #751

stcredzero wrote: post #738

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Actually, it flags Damore's interpretation of science as squishy and ideological. The 55-country study he cited has effectively one of the highest P-values in social science of recent years. It's widely considered in psychology to be an important result. Denying this is basically parroting intellectual dishonesty on the level of Global Warming denialism. The Big-5 personality traits he cited are the strongest results…

It's open season on everyone in virtually every American workplace. Why won't you acknowledge this? You're a reasonable guy. We've had dinner together! What's happening here isn't a shift. What you're demanding is a new special protection for "people who can defend their position scientifically".

It's open season on everyone in virtually every American workplace. Why won't you acknowledge this?

Oh, but I do acknowledge this. I would like to call attention to it. I thank you for your support.

What's happening here isn't a shift.

In the old days, one could cite such studies. The reactions and the consequences are indeed a shift in society. An outrageously authoritarian shift.

What you're demanding is a new special protection for "people who can defend their position scientifically".

Funny, but the NLRB was once a new special protection. The witch-hunts back then had took a different direction. I would grant that your interpretation of what's been discussed and apparently needed as a special protection. It does seem to me that our current society apparently needs special protection for things that used to be ok and which are still vital to the workings of our democratic society. Things like:

Peacefully donating to political PACs.

Peacefully having a mainstream political opinion. (Like being a Republican or a Libertarian)

Civilly stating an opinion.

Peacefully gathering to express political views.

At-will employment is now being used as a political tool against the category of people who are "Classical Liberals" and everyone to the right of that. It is different yet very similar in many regards to at-will employment being used against labor organizers in decades past.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#788

Post by YeGoblynQueenne » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:15 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #784

YeGoblynQueenne wrote: post #773

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>> The 55-country study he cited has effectively one of the highest P-values in social science of recent years. It's widely considered in psychology to be an important result. Denying this is basically parroting intellectual dishonesty on the level of Global Warming denialism. Of course it is not and I take umbrage at the offensive undertone of your comment ("parroting"? Really?). Psychology is not climate science, i…

Of course it is not and I take umbrage at the offensive undertone of your comment ("parroting"? Really?). Psychology is not climate science, it's currently going through a widely publicised reproducibility crisis and in any case, the reliance on p-values has been criticised widely by experts in fields as varied as economics, medicine and of course the humanities. The big-5 model itself has been the subject of much cr…

He's citing "legitimate scientific sources" but he doesn't understand them, so his citations are meaningless.

Where am I claiming that "the whole field isn't valid"? I said there's a reproducibility crisis and that the reliance on p-values has been criticised in various fields.

I made no claim that his interpretations are "wrong". I said that his interpretations are most likely wrong because he's not a psychologist and he doesn't understand the field. That's what you expect from non-experts who pretend to know what they're talking about, to be talking nonsense.

>> That sounds a lot like what climate science deniers do.

You keep insulting me.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#789

Post by ubernostrum » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:17 PM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #547

ubernostrum wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So let's play with this a bit. We're at a point where we've got actual empirical data showing that in a bunch of other fields of human endeavor which have: 1. Seen a huge observed gender gap, and 2. Comforted themselves with "rational" and "objective" and "scientific" explanations to prove it wasn't their fault, and 3. Eventually been persuaded to try even simple measures to test whether bias on the part of people in…

1. Seen a huge observed gender gap Like the ones favoring women in medicine in some countries? Like nursing? 4. Outcomes drastically changed once those simple measures were adopted, in a way which clearly and beyond reasonable doubt put the lie to the explanations claimed in (2). But only up to a point. Google and YouTube execs are on the record saying that they basically got to parity with the available candidate po…

Like nursing?

So do something about it, if it bothers you. Each person is free to choose how to prioritize their time and efforts, and is not required to solve every other problem (or even every other similar problem) in every other field in every other country on earth as a prerequisite. But we both know that, and we both know that you're running off a script of sound bites.

Actually, for a time "programmer" was skewed towards women.

Yes, that's exactly my point. The types of "scientific" "biological" "truths" people like Damore tend to cite don't change in the time frame of that observed change. It's almost like there was some social factor involved. Perhaps some social factor having something to do with the large number of men who suddenly showed interest. Though of course we have literally zero cases in all of recorded human history of men rigging a system to favor themselves over women, so we don't have to worry that such a thing could have happened. We'd only worry if, say, we had many, many examples of it from many fields of endeavor in many societies across a huge percentage of recorded history.

Oh. Wait.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#790

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 11:22 PM UTC

yongjik wrote: post #511

stcredzero wrote: post #474

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Milo not espousing alt right views? He's an active and vocal critic of the Alt-Right. He devoted an entire chapter of his book to criticism of the Alt-Right. Just what views of his would you cite as "Alt-Right?" Can you back those up with quotes? As far as I can tell, he's an amoral opportunist who will stoop to saying vile things, but he's not Alt-Right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blJfibQnTgU He was empl…

I just find it amusing that in a thread about someone who stated maybe all women are genetically less suited to engineering, we are supposed to understand the differences among four or five distinct fringe right-wing ideologies, and refrain from general remarks based on the behaviors of one group or another.

It's actually a thread about someone who didn't state that. You can only emotionally impute that to him.

we are supposed to understand the differences among four or five distinct fringe right-wing ideologies

No, you're supposed to be informed, and you're not supposed to impute views on others they don't actually have, just because you think you can get away with it. You know, intellectual honesty?

refrain from general remarks based on the behaviors of one group or another.

Yes, please don't tar people through stereotypes or anything which is not factually or rationally founded. Furthermore, judge people on the merit of what they do and say as individuals. Don't lump people into groups because you are incensed and you feel like it. That sort of behavior is precisely the moral downfall of the Alt-Right.