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In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

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Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#61

Post by jdietrich »

zaroth wrote: post #53
miles wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dave Arnold, another favorite writer of mine, has a solution to this problem: clove oil anesthetizes lobsters (and fish). Clove oil, knife through the head, then boil. Or, you know, don’t kill them. Not sure why this idea is still considered extreme. Why harm fellow creatures when it is simply unnecessary? As Tolstoy wrote[1], "A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats me…

It’s fairly difficult not to kill them, you know, when you plan to eat them. If your Tolstoy quote is accurate, it seems fairly sloppy reasoning to me. Animal protein is an essential component of nourishing billions of people. Calling sustenance “appetite” is a rhetorical flourish which undermines the argument. I think what would be immoral is telling billions of people they can’t eat meat. There are many ways one co…

>humans are entitled to a certain degree of leeway in this regard. Sustainably eating the plants and animals beneath us on the food chain is one of those areas.

If we ever come into contact with extraterrestrial life, I hope that they don't share this view.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#62

Post by jdietrich »

derefr wrote: post #37
always_good wrote: post #33

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't understand how your argument exists alongside the fact that we farm the animals that we eat. The chicken that you buy at the grocer isn't one we swiped away just as a wolf was about it eat it. The chicken was grown indoors in a factory, likely hadn't even seen the light of day. Even a wolf-eaten wild chicken gets that courtesy.

The argument I have is mostly applicable to fisheries (i.e. this discussion re: lobsters); it doesn't have much to say about farming. Lobsters, like much of our seafood, are just plucked up out of the ocean. If we don't eat them, an otter or something does.

As it happens, adult American lobsters have few predators other than man. They're big, well-armored, have immensely powerful claws and live in deep burrows. Juvenile lobsters are vulnerable to ground fish, but an adult lobster is only likely to be eaten by brave seals and humans.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#63

Post by lisper »

miles wrote: post #60
zaroth wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fairly difficult not to kill them, you know, when you plan to eat them. If your Tolstoy quote is accurate, it seems fairly sloppy reasoning to me. Animal protein is an essential component of nourishing billions of people. Calling sustenance “appetite” is a rhetorical flourish which undermines the argument. I think what would be immoral is telling billions of people they can’t eat meat. There are many ways one co…

> Animal protein is an essential component of nourishing billions of people It doesn't have to be; in fact, humans, animals, and the planet would be much better off in many ways were we to transition to plant-based diets: Go vegan, save the planet https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/08/opinions/go-vegan-save-the-pl... Five things would happen if everyone stopped eating meat http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/five-things-wou…

But lobsters are so much tastier than tofu. :-(

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#64

Post by bikamonki »

Hahahaha this is too stupid. How can these be less cruel?

"Two methods are recommended: Electrocution or sedating the lobster by dipping it into salt water and then thrusting a knife into its brain."

Maybe the lobster actually feels a litle pleasure on the boiling water before going main-dish, like you reader on a jacuzzi, having an exoskeleton and all sure helps.

Stupid laws. Better fix that corrupted banking system first.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#65

Post by derefr »

jdietrich wrote: post #62
derefr wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The argument I have is mostly applicable to fisheries (i.e. this discussion re: lobsters); it doesn't have much to say about farming. Lobsters, like much of our seafood, are just plucked up out of the ocean. If we don't eat them, an otter or something does.

As it happens, adult American lobsters have few predators other than man. They're big, well-armored, have immensely powerful claws and live in deep burrows. Juvenile lobsters are vulnerable to ground fish, but an adult lobster is only likely to be eaten by brave seals and humans.

True enough, for now. It seems climate change has created a lobster population boom, though (they love the warmer water), so I would say it's only a matter of time before evolution takes notice of this "free lunch" and adapts some of the neighbouring predators to better get at them.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#66

Post by microcolonel »

miles wrote: post #60
zaroth wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s fairly difficult not to kill them, you know, when you plan to eat them. If your Tolstoy quote is accurate, it seems fairly sloppy reasoning to me. Animal protein is an essential component of nourishing billions of people. Calling sustenance “appetite” is a rhetorical flourish which undermines the argument. I think what would be immoral is telling billions of people they can’t eat meat. There are many ways one co…

> Animal protein is an essential component of nourishing billions of people It doesn't have to be; in fact, humans, animals, and the planet would be much better off in many ways were we to transition to plant-based diets: Go vegan, save the planet https://www.cnn.com/2017/04/08/opinions/go-vegan-save-the-pl... Five things would happen if everyone stopped eating meat http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/five-things-wou…

There are people who have averse reactions to almost every plant based food, and can largely only eat meat or suffer horrible mental and physical health problems.

Diet is not one-size-fits all, and we have basically no idea how complex diet is, or the specific long term effects of most dietary interventions on people. It is absolutely reprehensible to represent going vegan as an obvious way forward when it is unclear that it's even safe for a large majority of people.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#67

Post by Spoygg »

derefr wrote: post #30
miles wrote: post #19

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Dave Arnold, another favorite writer of mine, has a solution to this problem: clove oil anesthetizes lobsters (and fish). Clove oil, knife through the head, then boil. Or, you know, don’t kill them. Not sure why this idea is still considered extreme. Why harm fellow creatures when it is simply unnecessary? As Tolstoy wrote[1], "A man can live and be healthy without killing animals for food; therefore, if he eats me…

The only animals that don't generally die mostly from predation are those on top of whatever food chain they're a part of (bears, big cats, etc.) And we don't tend to eat those. For the rest, if we aren't eating them, something else is going to eat them. It's not a question of "taking an animal life"—the animal's life is going to get taken, in a messy, bloody, terrifying way. It is considered by some to be an increas…

> For the rest, if we aren't eating them, something else is going to eat them. It's not a question of "taking an animal life"—the animal's life is going to get taken, in a messy, bloody, terrifying way.

Not necessarily, the amount of ocean inhabitants people consume surely tops what would be taken naturally. I don't see how getting scooped from the ocean, hauled in trucks in small boxes, than kept alive in some aquarium beats living in ocean until any kind of death.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#68

Post by 013a »

Eyas wrote: post #35
david38 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lots of things aren't necessary. Eating lots of meat, sex without intent to procreate, travel. They sure are fun!

The gp is still pointing out that causing suffering to other creatures is a downside of eating meat. While all items you listed are not necessary, only one of them has that downside. Unless one argues with the premise that the killing/pain of other creatures is harmful, we'll only be talking past one another.

Having sex without the intent to procreate can lead to having children whom you aren't prepared to take care of. Tourism fuels and is fueled by organizations that destroy ecosystems.

Everything humanity does destroys the planet and its inhabitants, including ourselves. A vegan thinks they're doing their small part, while texting up a storm on their iPhone, driving to work in their Camry, living in their downtown 1000 sqft apartment. Thinking your diet of all things makes the animals we share this place with feel any better is about as facetious as thinking a band-aid would help a man who just went headfirst into a woodchipper. You could go completely offgrid, live off the land, maximizing everything you can do to help this problem, and you wouldn't even begin to put a dent into it.

But if it helps you sleep at night, then by all means. At least you've some semblance of peace, which is more than most people on this planet have.

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#69

Post by firethief »

theoh wrote: post #47
Eyas wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The gp is still pointing out that causing suffering to other creatures is a downside of eating meat. While all items you listed are not necessary, only one of them has that downside. Unless one argues with the premise that the killing/pain of other creatures is harmful, we'll only be talking past one another.

Not sure about the meaning of your second paragraph, but in theory, animals bred for human consumption could live happy lives up to the point of a painless, instant death. The issue becomes whether they would be missed by other animals. Some would consider this a dangerous way of thinking, but someone like Temple Grandin would agree, I think, that the correct thing to worry about is suffering, not 'harm' in some abst…

Considering suffering alone seems like it could justify some counterintuitive conclusions. Would it be wrong to have a child, raise it happily to adolescence, and then give it a painless, instant death? If so, why?

Re: In Switzerland, it's now illegal to boil a live lobster

#70

Post by tantivy »

shrimp_emoji wrote: post #55
bernardino wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While I still eat meat, etc, at times I do think about what kind of suffering animals, etc, go through. I often come to the conclusion that we should just let them be - their lives, much like ours, are short-lived, and they deserve their little piece happiness. All this reminds me of Small Is Beautiful: Economics as if People Mattered by Ernst F. Schumacher - a great read.

I disagree because they're not smart enough to enjoy their short and simple lives, so the enjoyment our lives get via eating them takes precedence. This is a very fascist position, though! I could say the same for a human on life support who's gone through brain death (really, a lobster's smarter, at that point). Although perhaps that's not really that bad, albeit macabre. Perhaps, one day, we'll lab-grow meat, maybe…

Circular reasoning. What kind of evidence can you have for some being "not smart enough" for any arbitrary experience? Nice essay though
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