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Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

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Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#661

Post by [deleted] »

gaius wrote: post #624
fjsolwmv wrote: post #607

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is well researched in the feminist sociology literature. When a "women's job" (like teaching or nursing) becomes more respected, pay goes up, and... The industry gets an influx of men working in it.

pay goes up, and... The industry gets an influx of men working in it. But isn’t the opposite true as well? I mean, it wasn't that long ago that the IT department was at the bottom of the organisational pecking order, sometimes literally at the bottom in a dingy, windowless basement, and jokes about nerds and geeks and personal hygiene and poor fashion choices and so on were totally mainstream and acceptable. In those…

[deleted]

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#662

Post by [deleted] »

itronitron wrote: post #558
stcredzero wrote: post #439

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, it wasn't. It was public, but there was no assassination. It sure looked like an intellectually dishonest, ideologically fervent character assassination to me.

can you elaborate on what you mean by intellectually dishonest?

[deleted]

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#663

Post by olefoo »

techservative wrote: post #637
fzeroracer wrote: post #468

The problem with Damore's theory he posited (that the difference in traits and abilities between men and women is why you see a certain imbalance in tech) ignores the history of computer science, where in the early days of CS you had a large amount of women entering into software followed by a sharp dropoff in the 80s [1]. The 'biological differences' argument falls flat because it implies that somehow women changed…

This explanation in the NPR piece is so thin, so poorly researched and so speculative I simply am not able to accept it. The entire narrative stinks, we need a better one backed by actual data. Look at the graph, women in STEM falls closer to 1986, when Reagan passed the immigration reform act. Doesn’t it seem suspicious that Reagan immigration reform landed right on top of this decline? I do agree that the standard…

"I simply am not able to accept it." - how about, now just hear me out on this one.

How about, You entertain the possibility that the dude got fired because he deserved it and wrote something that was intentionally aimed at making the team he was supposed to be a part of erupt in a bunch of fruitless and non-productive drama. Which succeeded in becoming an industry wide viral hit. Drawing unwanted negative publicity to his employer. This is capitalism 101 here. Bro was toxic to effective team function. Who knows how much money Alphabet lost to this one drama llama.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#664

Post by stryk »

imron wrote: post #640
gaius wrote: post #632

Earlier quoted context omitted.

To be fair to Buzzfeed (can’t believe I just wrote that) we don’t know if they did, or if the mystery person who leaked it did.

To be fair to Buzzfeed it turns out I remembered it wrong and it was Gizmodo who originally published the memo, I've corrected that in my comment, but we do know that they stripped it on purpose, stating in the article: "The text of the post is reproduced in full below, with some minor formatting modifications. Two charts and several hyperlinks are also omitted."

Wow I've only just seen this part (i was only familiar with the headlines of this story I never bothered to look into it until now) Whatever anyone's feelings on the issue one way or another, Gizmodo totally fucked this Damore over and I have to think it was deliberate, it doesn't make sense otherwise. I just browsed the original paper and there are citations all over the place - to strip those out is a deliberate move to influence the narrative, it has to be, I mean hell they edited it. They changed the nature of the guy's argument and there's no way in hell they didn't realize how big of an impact that would make (they're not going for a Pulitzer @ gizmodo, and they never claimed to that i know of, but still they aren't total journalistic imbeciles they had to have thought about it)

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#665

Post by [deleted] »

reader5000 wrote: post #604
rayiner wrote: post #522

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not just the history of computer science. Damore's essay was based on time-tested pseudo-scientific reasoning, the sort that has been invoked to exclude women in many different fields. When law firms offered Sandra Day O'Connor a secretarial job after she graduated third in her class at Stanford, do you think they said "we just don't like women?" Of course not. They couched their bias in appeals to the differenc…

There are more male programmers than female. Please explain how invoking genetic differences explanations is pseudo scientific, whereas invoking systematic discrimination explanations is not pseudo-scientific. Consider: There are more male rapists than female rapists. Is this because female rapists are systematically discriminated against? Does our society shamefully teach children that raping is only for boys? Or ar…

[deleted]

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#666

Post by deanCommie »

SiVal wrote: post #556
surveilmebro wrote: post #412

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone who was an actual classmate of Damore, I can attest to his lack of character in this regard. I understand that the tone of his memo made it appear to have come from a thoughtful humanist, but this was a careful deception. In every social or professional encounter I've had with him, he's at least made somebody (particularly women) uncomfortable. In several cases these incidents led to meetings and reprimand…

Well, maybe you have insider knowledge about how much he actually disagrees with those on the left at Google--or maybe you don't. But either way, those who are fully in the alt-left camp at Google seem to consider themselves completely free to make anyone who disagrees with them uncomfortable and to go far beyond that: to force them to undergo indoctrination "training", or to be fired outright to make examples of the…

Only when it comes to things that the right is is indisputably on the wrong side of history and hasn't figured it out yet (gay rights, gender rights, etc).

Its not like the alt left yet to preach about communism or unions or taxation with the same privileged safety. Subjects like this get a lot of reasonable discussion from both sides at left leaning companies.

But when it comes to things like diversity? And you are a company full of the most intelligent people in the world? Yeah, sorry if you haven't realized that "unconscious bias" is a real thing, you don't deserve a safe space to question it, you are being wilfully ignorant.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#667

Post by dang »

pokemongoaway wrote: post #652
rayiner wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 1. If there are indeed biological differences between sexes that could help explain different aptitudes/predispositions for different intellectual pursuits, should it be firable to say so? You need to unpack this into a few different things: 1) Are there cognitive differences between the sexes? Probably true--but we don't have a great idea of what they are. 2) Do those cognitive differences explain different aptitu…

1) People have been fascinated with this and have studied it for decades. Just because it isn't quantified, doesn't mean we have no idea what they are 2) You are choosing to frame other's arguments incorrectly and then attacking those imperfections. Men and women in the countries "most equal" are polarized even more in their career choices. 3) People high up in Facebook & Google have publicly questioned advertising &…

> Hard to have a conversation with someone who just flat out lies at every turn

This thread is awful enough without people stooping to personal attack. We ban accounts that do this. Moreover you've violate the site guidelines quite a bit and we've had to warn you before.

We won't ban you this time, but please (re-)read https://news.ycombinator.com/newsguidelines.html and follow the rules from now on if you want to keep commenting here.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#668

Post by throwaway324823 »

bduerst wrote: post #380
oh_sigh wrote: post #234

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is exactly what happens in academia all of the time, when you have factions who believe in competing ideas. Side A thinks that logic and rationality and the data is on their side, and that side B stretches the facts and don't have support for their claims, and vice versa for side B. Are all of these issues in academia settled which you refer to? Or is it that, maybe, Damore accepted side Bs views, whereas you ac…

There's a good breakdown here, that was eventually run in Forbes: https://www.quora.com/What-do-scientists-think-about-the-bio...

Is it a good breakdown? The author seems awfully bought into the narrative of power structures being the dominant reason for sex differences, and is obviously extremely angry. Hardly an unbiased observer.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#670

Post by dragonwriter »

stcredzero wrote: post #474
Sabinus wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

How is Milo not espousing alt right views? He was employed by Breitbart.

How is Milo not espousing alt right views? He's an active and vocal critic of the Alt-Right. He devoted an entire chapter of his book to criticism of the Alt-Right. Just what views of his would you cite as "Alt-Right?" Can you back those up with quotes? As far as I can tell, he's an amoral opportunist who will stoop to saying vile things, but he's not Alt-Right. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=blJfibQnTgU He was empl…

> He was employed by Breitbart.

> He left

He resigned under pressure when controversy erupted over his past comments that were viewed as supporting, or at least minimizing the significance of, pedophilia.

He didn't leave because he suddenly realized, after years of association, that Breitbart was an alt-right outlet, so the fact that he left is not really germane to what his voluntary association with Breitbart says about his ideology.

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