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Learning to program is getting harder

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Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#261

Anecdotally, what I've seen is that older programmers, in addition to being programmers, also have the skills of a computer helpdesk technician. They can debug Windows problems, hardware problems, know how to mess with the BIOS, and have no problem installing or configuring any piece of software. This helps immensely when setting up your IDE or debugging weird problems with compiling. Younger programmers seem to comm…

I disagree. These skills might be applicable to a Software Engineering degree, but not Computer Science.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#262

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Surprisingly I think I'm the first to disagree. I find a modern IDE comes with so much implied mental baggage that new users can get completely overwhelmed. Sure, languages which require complex build environments almost demand one, but in simpler environments it can be a lot easier to reduce the cognitive load in a simplified environment. One can do a lot of programming and learning with just a simple editor (Nano?)…

For me it's the opposite. A modern IDE is significantly easier to understand, with far less mental baggage than some hacked together combination of several CLI based tools. The mental drain of clicking some nice green play arrow on screen when you want to execute code is non-existent. The baggage of remembering which tool does what, what weird flag you have to keep adding to one of the commands you need, what keyboar…

The problem is figuring out what to do when the little green play arrow doesn't do anything or is grayed out for whatever reason. Fixing that probably requires a bit of knowledge of both the language toolchain and the particular IDE. Typing "python" at a command line and getting a prompt can certainly seem easier.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#263

I disagree. Creating a program that meets todays' users expectations is what's harder. But learning programming by itself, is way easier. We have Python, Ruby, Javascript... We have the Web as a platform and as documentation. We have communities and cheap, fast computers. The hello world has never been easier to do. What's hard is to make a real time offline first SPA with a beautiful responsive design that uses the…

>We have Python, Ruby, Javascript... We have the Web as a platform Can you explain how any of those things makes learning programming easier?

To get started with Javascript, the only compiler you need to download is a web browser.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#264

Anecdotally, what I've seen is that older programmers, in addition to being programmers, also have the skills of a computer helpdesk technician. They can debug Windows problems, hardware problems, know how to mess with the BIOS, and have no problem installing or configuring any piece of software. This helps immensely when setting up your IDE or debugging weird problems with compiling. Younger programmers seem to comm…

>>> I think this is a side effect of teaching programming as a career skill. You have people that want to be programmers but don't include "computing" as one of their hobbies.

It may be the result of the competitiveness of the education system. Everything is more competitive. As I understand things, CS is the hottest undergraduate major right now. You can't just sign up because you learned to program in high school and think it's cool. You have to be a top student just to get admitted. So it may be that the kids who want to be computer scientists just aren't able to have hobbies at all, or their hobbies are chosen to look good on their college applications.

One of the things I've noticed between then and now, is that when I was in high school, I learned programming because I had a lot of spare time to kill. My kids have no spare time.

>>> Teaching these skills in CS curriculum would probably be a good idea.

Granted, I didn't study CS, but instead math & physics, decades ago. But I think that some things don't belong in a college curriculum, especially given the price tag. I didn't take college courses to learn soldering, or even programming.

But also, not all CS majors are destined to become hackers, and there has to be room for a student who might be all thumbs but really has a deep interest in the subject matter of the field. In physics, we called them "theoreticians."

A deeper question is why someone is studying theoretical computer science for 4 years in order to become a coder. Programming is getting harder, but that much harder? When my mom taught programming in the early 80s, her students were getting jobs after one year of coursework.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#265

Anecdotally, what I've seen is that older programmers, in addition to being programmers, also have the skills of a computer helpdesk technician. They can debug Windows problems, hardware problems, know how to mess with the BIOS, and have no problem installing or configuring any piece of software. This helps immensely when setting up your IDE or debugging weird problems with compiling. Younger programmers seem to comm…

I agree completely --- being one of the "older programmers" --- and think it could be phrased thus: a new generation of "coders" is being forced to learn how to write instructions for the machine, when they are barely computer-literate. Having taught some introductory CS courses a few years ago, the amount of struggling with basic things like file naming, directory hierarchies, and even simple hardware use was a cons…

Can’t help but wonder if in another 40 years, if this sentiment be viewed as being absurd, similar to how we’d find hypothetical comments from 35-40 years ago as absurd: personal computers being nothing more than calculator or hobby, and “not a real computer since it came already assembled and someone else already wrote the software!”

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#266

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There aren't really any clues as to how a computer works on an iphone. There isn't even a visible filesystem. It's no wonder students today have no idea how a computer works.

Aye, I second this, got me really pissed off when fellow CS student told me he has ''experience'' in using Iphone extensively, and that counts towards computing. Makes you wonder what does computing mean to people nowadays.

I ask this out of genuine interest... why does it matter? Why’d it piss you off?

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#267
Programming is not getting harder, these are just the reactions of people who probably shouldn't be in this discipline in the first place.

A great deal of any programming, technical, what have you job is just getting stuff to work. A lot of it has nothing to do with the actual core task at hand or your specialization but still needs to happen one way or another. This means using critical thinking skills, deductive reasoning, the scientific method. It means scouring Google, trying things until you have a clear mental model of whatever insane legacy you're working in.

Back in the day, I'd spend my time at home trying random things, looking at files in a hex editor, disassembling software to figure out how it worked because there was simply no other way. There was no Internet, and the only documentation I had was at my library, which was limited to whatever they had and usually was out of date or incorrect. Sometimes they wouldn't even let me bring stuff home, because I was a kid and why on earth is this weird kid wanting some giant technical reference manual? There were no laptops (that I could afford) so I had to read it there, and then go back home and try more things with my hopefully newfound knowledge.

Today, we have Google, we have groups, the Internet, mobile devices, tons of high quality blogs, books, free online courses, and the industry itself is infinitely larger with resources that still boggle my mind to this day. As long as I have the time, I'm usually able to tackle most any problem. I couldn't really say that as a kid growing up in the early 90's, trying to learn programming. Those were the literal stone ages. No internship programs, most people thought of tech jobs as vocational IT help desk related (at least in my hometown). There were times when I was legitimately stuck with no resources or recourse.

So please, excuse me if I don't find sympathy of these people who cannot be bothered to setup their python envrionment with the aid of stackoverflow.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with your observation, but I don't agree with your diagnosis of the cause. I think it's mostly down to the increasing abstraction and ease of using software. When I was a kid, I wouldn't have described "computing" as a hobby, but just getting certain games to install and run on my parent's cheap Gateway PC would require a lot of fiddling around. My younger siblings have no more or less interest in computing t…

Programming is not harder than it used to be. For example, I was programming Macs in the pre-Internet era which meant lots of thick books. If you got stuck there was nobody who was going to help out and you just had to puzzle it out vs the example in one of the few how-to books like the famous Mac Programming Primer. Also, there was little open source, so you couldn't read the library source to figure out how things…

It was a lot harder to be discouraged as a young adult. Some year you'd feel you were outgrowing your happy QBasic hacking and pick up a massively thick Turbo Pascal book and feel a bit humbled, but that was once in a blue moon. Now you are always one search away from some harrowing design pattern depths or cryptic industry standard source code.

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#269
post #187

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why is a pothole round? Nope - sorry, looks like you're not a mythical unicorn!

The famous question is "why are manhole covers round?" Manholes being artificial, this leaves some room for speculation about why the shape was chosen. "Why is a pothole round?" is a more objective question.

Sorry, confused here on why the pothole variant is more objective? If anything, the manhole cover one seems pretty clear cut?

Re: Learning to program is getting harder

#270

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> why 8.3 filenames Why is that, exactly? I grew up in that era, I remember when floppies were actually floppy, and I've been well into computers ever since, but I don't believe I could tell you why. If I had to guess, I'd guess that FAT used a fixed number of bytes for each filename.

Yep you got it. My first actual PCs (I don't count the Apricot PCs haha) were DOS 3.3, and I still remember the transition away from 33MB partitions although it's so long ago I can't remember if that came in with DOS 4.0 (abort abort!) or 5. I thought I was so cool having a PC with drives A B C D E F G H I.

Oh man, rich kids had a D: drive. The rest of us had to make do with A: and C:
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