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Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

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Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#351

Post by leereeves »

rendall wrote: post #103

Did the NLRB memo specify exactly which statements in Damore's memo were discriminatory and hostile? Is there a copy available?

The two statements they mentioned specifically were:

> Women are more prone to “neuroticism,” resulting in women experiencing higher anxiety and exhibiting lower tolerance for stress, which “may contribute to . . . the lower number of women in high stress jobs”;

> Men demonstrate greater variance in IQ than women, such that there are more men at both the top and bottom of the distribution. Thus, posited, the Employer’s preference to hire from the “top of the curve” may result in a candidate pool with fewer females than those of “less-selective” tech companies.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#352

Post by ThomPete »

hypersoar wrote: post #340
dejawu wrote: post #210

The way this whole thing played out makes me sad, because the guy did bring up a good point - current-day social justice leaves little avenue for well-meaning but unaware (perhaps through privilege) people to start conversations and learn about the reasons and motivations for certain efforts such as affirmative action and changes in vocabulary. Damore was indeed punished for speaking out, just as he feared. Then he s…

If Damore was really concerned about a lack of ability to "start conversations", then he should've approached his memo with a shred of humility. He decries Google's diversity efforts but does little to suggest he's done much research into that topic itself. In fact, he barely mentions their specific programs at all. Here [1], by the way, is an interesting overview of diversity programs. It mentions that voluntary div…

He is writing it as feedback (which was encouraged by the HR team) to the very people who set up the program, why on earth would he need to do mention that specifically? He wasn't writing it to you.

What in that memo makes you feel that you can claim he didn't start with a shred of humulity? Can you point to any specifics?

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#353

Post by debt »

gowld wrote: post #214
debt wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

“But Google cultivated an environment were open discussion were encouraged.” “People should get fired for not doing their jobs” When you’re hired to write code all day and instead are writing a long sexist rambling memo at work during work hours and posting it to a work forum, you’re not doing your job.

The memo was written as part of a company training event. Damore attended a training and then wrote a response when asked for feedback. Very much doing his job.

I don’t see how circulating his feedback with coworkers about some training event was part of his job.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#354

Post by stcredzero »

Buldak wrote: post #334
stcredzero wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an impressive feat of mental gymnastics to both kinda sorta acknowledge the alt-right might not be a great group of guys but then also claim Damore had no choice but to pull into that port It's an impressive feat of mental gymnastics to put people like Dave Rubin, Gad Saad, and Steven Pinker into the category of "Alt-Right." (The first two being an openly gay man in a gay marriage, and a Lebanese jew.) There is…

The comment you replied to does not describe those figures as alt-right. On the other hand, the very first person Damore engaged after being fired was Stefan Molyneux, who is undeniably alt-right. It's also insipid to suggest that being gay or Jewish precludes being alt-right or otherwise bigoted. What would that make Milo Yiannopoulos?

the very first person Damore engaged after his firing was Stefan Molyneux, who is undeniably alt-right.

I try to avoid Molyneux as much as possible. Keep in mind that the term "alt-right" is overloaded terminology. Roaming Millenial has a video where she outlines 4 broad categories of "alt-right." Not all of them are White Supremacist. Molyneux, I would just categorize as a very cultish Libertarian. Molyneaux should be rejected because of observations of his actual morality, with regards to questions of free inquiry. You might know additional bad things about him. However, it's "insipid" (your word) to judge James Damore's ideas based on association.

It's also insipid to suggest that being gay or Jewish precludes being alt-right

Just as insipid to put Gad Saad, Dave Rubin, and Steven Pinker into that category, based on what they say and the positions they take. The fact that they are gay or Jewish should at least get you to question the narratives pushed by media and take into account their actual positions. Hint: The narratives with regards to those 3 are false, and are unprincipled attempts to silence through association, probably because the critiques and information they supply pretty much demolish those narratives.

What would that make Milo Yiannopoulos?

Milo is, as far as I can tell, genuinely is anti Alt-Right, where that term encompasses the more radical 3/4ths of Roaming Millenial's categorization. He may well line up politically with some segment of the online community which rejects identity politics, but which is still far right. He also displays a problematic morality as evidenced by some of his actions. In my estimation, he's half activist and half opportunist.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#355

Post by freedomben »

hypersoar wrote: post #340
dejawu wrote: post #210

The way this whole thing played out makes me sad, because the guy did bring up a good point - current-day social justice leaves little avenue for well-meaning but unaware (perhaps through privilege) people to start conversations and learn about the reasons and motivations for certain efforts such as affirmative action and changes in vocabulary. Damore was indeed punished for speaking out, just as he feared. Then he s…

If Damore was really concerned about a lack of ability to "start conversations", then he should've approached his memo with a shred of humility. He decries Google's diversity efforts but does little to suggest he's done much research into that topic itself. In fact, he barely mentions their specific programs at all. Here [1], by the way, is an interesting overview of diversity programs. It mentions that voluntary div…

> He decries Google's diversity efforts but does little to suggest he's done much research into that topic itself.

I take it you either didn't read the memo, or read the version of the memo with all the references removed (Gizmodo, Buzzfeed, and surely others)

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#356

Post by refulgentis »

Consultant32452 wrote: post #310
refulgentis wrote: post #303

Earlier quoted context omitted.

His views _as stated_ necessarily meant _some_ women he worked with weren't qualified to be his coworkers because of their gender. You have a right to free speech, not to alienate your coworkers.

Could you point out that specific passage? As I read it he specifically went out of his way to say that all of the women he worked with were qualified.

He literally says that those hiring practices can lower the bar.

Sure, maybe he's saying that the bar for white/Asian men is higher than intended rather than that the bar for women and minorities is lower than intended, but you can't honestly argue that he isn't saying that women and minorities could be clearing a lower bar than white/Asian men.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#357

Post by yorwba »

bduerst wrote: post #275
moduspol wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abilities follow from preferences at the level being discussed (potential hiring pool at Google). I am not good at being a nurse because I chose to become a software developer. I chose to become a software developer because I prefer working with computers over people. My preference in adolescence resulted in my being more capable as a software developer for a company like Google. That this one statement keeps getting…

>That this one statement keeps getting taken out of context and misinterpreted Wrong again. When you look at the full context, Damore specifically says that it's not socially constructed like you're describing. Damore isn't arguing that women lack the ability for tech or leadership because they prefer to be nurses, his argument stems from biological differences: >> On average, men and women biologically differ in man…

Note that there are differences in certain abilities (most famously mental rotation) that are known to be affected by sex (male and female babies already perform differently). Now mental rotation isn't exactly relevant to software engineering, but there are other biological traits such as autism spectrum disorders that are anecdotally beneficial for software development. It wouldn't surprise me if there were a correlation between sex and programming ability.

However, the number of skills required for software development is quite large and any correlation is likely to be very small. Additionally, there is no a priori reason to assume that the average woman isn't better suited to it than the average man, since there are lots of other effects that could drown out an underlying difference in ability.

So Damore is technically correct, but that doesn't really matter in the end because he doesn't show that effect sizes are large enough to support his conclusions against the policies he opposes (whose evidence is also pretty weak).

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#358

Post by bduerst »

moduspol wrote: post #292
bduerst wrote: post #275

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>That this one statement keeps getting taken out of context and misinterpreted Wrong again. When you look at the full context, Damore specifically says that it's not socially constructed like you're describing. Damore isn't arguing that women lack the ability for tech or leadership because they prefer to be nurses, his argument stems from biological differences: >> On average, men and women biologically differ in man…

That's not the full context, though. The full context is that he's writing this memo in the first place to propose alternatives to a hiring policy. That is: the relevant group is the hiring pool for Google. By the time men and women reach the point where Google's hiring policy is relevant toward their outcomes, the distribution of their abilities is already quite different. That's not even really questionable: It's w…

Except what you said about social constructs in your comment isn't argued in the memo, hence you're now projecting about "selective interpretation."

Nobody is saying this isn't in context to hiring policies - that's your straw man. Damore was arguing that women were not in engineering and leadership positions because of preferences and biological abilities (in support of his memo's argument about hiring policies). The latter of which there is no evidence to support.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#359

Post by ThomPete »

Buldak wrote: post #334
stcredzero wrote: post #284

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is an impressive feat of mental gymnastics to both kinda sorta acknowledge the alt-right might not be a great group of guys but then also claim Damore had no choice but to pull into that port It's an impressive feat of mental gymnastics to put people like Dave Rubin, Gad Saad, and Steven Pinker into the category of "Alt-Right." (The first two being an openly gay man in a gay marriage, and a Lebanese jew.) There is…

The comment you replied to does not describe those figures as alt-right. On the other hand, the very first person Damore engaged after being fired was Stefan Molyneux, who is undeniably alt-right. It's also insipid to suggest that being gay or Jewish precludes being alt-right or otherwise bigoted. What would that make Milo Yiannopoulos?

Stefan Molyneux is not alt-right where do you get that idea from?

Milo was one of the most hated people by the alt-right, his husband is black, how much more do you need for him to most probably no being alt-right?.

I refuse to believe that anyone who sincerely and honestly spent any time looking into the actual opinions of Milo, Ben Shapiro, Molyneux etc and not just cherry-picked soundbites would make such claims about them. Milo is extreme in his provocations but he is hardly anything close to alt-right.

I certainly don't agree with everything these guys have to say but I would urge you to actually listen to what they are trying to say before you judge them.

To the downvoters. At least provide me with a reason for the downvote. What did I say that's so wrong?

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#360

Post by depressedpanda »

skywhopper wrote: post #350
ThomPete wrote: post #331

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you point to where he says any of what you claim? I have read that memo quite a few time and see no such claims anywhere.

Here's a couple: Women on average show a higher interest in people and men in things We can make software engineering more people-oriented with pair programming and more collaboration. Unfortunately, there may be limits to how people- oriented certain roles at Google can be and we shouldn't deceive ourselves or students into thinking otherwise (some of our programs to get female students into coding might be doing th…

That doesn't at all prove your claim that he "basically asserted that women engineers didn't belong at Google".
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