Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge • Hacker News Board

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#281

Post by joshuamorton » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:34 AM UTC

happyguy43 wrote: post #266

joshuamorton wrote: post #259

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And that's your right, my point is that the experts seem to disagree, and that should, at a minimum give you pause.

It did give me pause, then it gave me concern, then it fizzled into lack of surprise. Damore lost the PR battle long ago. PR justice, while disheartening, isn’t anything new. Challengers to popular ideology are never right at first, but he’ll be right eventually. One day it’ll be more faux pas to assume there are zero average personality differences between the sexes.

This is venturing off topic, but you're actually incorrect that he lost the PR battle [0]. The majority of people support Damore, or at least disagree with Google. The majority of subject matter experts, however, do not.

[0]: http://thehill.com/policy/technology/348246-poll-google-was-...

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#282

Post by leereeves » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:36 AM UTC

jxdxbx wrote: post #273

leereeves wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, the NLRB isn't settling the science. It's saying that discussion of the science renders otherwise protected speech unprotected ("so harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive as to be unprotected"), and effectively removing workers' legal right to engage in science-based discussion of whether a 50/50 gender ratio is the appropriate goal.

There is no such “legal right” to discuss things in the workplace. Where do you get that from? Maybe there should be one, but there isn’t.

According to the NLRB, the National Labor Relations Act grants workers the legal right to discuss work-related issues with each other.

https://www.nlrb.gov/rights-we-protect/employee-rights

This comes from Section 7 of the National Labor Relations Act: "Employees shall have the right to...engage in other concerted activities for the purpose of collective bargaining or other mutual aid or protection."

In this specific case, the Advice Memo refers to protection for "expressing a dissenting view on matters affecting working conditions or offering critical feedback of its policies and programs".

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#283

Post by ncallaway » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:37 AM UTC

stcredzero wrote: post #213

leereeves wrote: post #173

Earlier quoted context omitted.

IMHO, the Advice Memo's conclusion is summarized by this sentence: > Damore's statements about immutable traits linked to sex — such as women’s heightened neuroticism and men’s prevalence at the top of the IQ distribution — were discriminatory and constituted sexual harassment, notwithstanding his effort to cloak his comments with “scientific” references and analysis and notwithstanding “not all women” disclaimers. I…

> > were discriminatory and constituted sexual harassment, notwithstanding his effort to cloak his comments with “scientific” references and analysis and notwithstanding “not all women” disclaimers. > I find this disturbing. I find this very disturbing as well. The only way that even the most ardent opponents of Damore's memo can come to a "discriminatory" and "harassment" interpretation, is to disregard a literal, f…

> How is that not "thought-crime?"

Given that there's nothing criminal in any of the allegations, I don't see how _crime_ is even applicable in your label.

Maybe a better question might be how is that not "thought-firing?"

Your questions and concerns would be alarming and frightening to me if Damore had received a criminal indictment. He didn't, so I'm much less concerned about the case.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#284

Post by stcredzero » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:38 AM UTC

tclancy wrote: post #276

Consultant32452 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the progressive left THRUST Damore and anyone who might have similar thoughts/questions into the welcoming arms of the alt-right. I'm disappointed with the "Goolag" t-shirts, but he did lose his livelihood, had his professional reputation destroyed, and only a limited time to cash out. So this socially awkward nerd did what any sensible person would do, rode the wave that was sent his way the best he coul…

He has no agency? He chose to speak up and then he chose to go down the path he did. It is an impressive feat of mental gymnastics to both kinda sorta acknowledge the alt-right might not be a great group of guys but then also claim Damore had no choice but to pull into that port in a storm of his own making. Allow me to pour out a beaker of Soylent for the poor, downtrodden white man.

It is an impressive feat of mental gymnastics to both kinda sorta acknowledge the alt-right might not be a great group of guys but then also claim Damore had no choice but to pull into that port

It's an impressive feat of mental gymnastics to put people like Dave Rubin, Gad Saad, and Steven Pinker into the category of "Alt-Right." (The first two being an openly gay man in a gay marriage, and a Lebanese jew.) There is no logic there. Basically, if you're not a true believer who has drunk the Kool-Aid, you must be one of the lurking enemy harboring evil thoughts. Sorry, but there are a lot of people who are happy to live and let live, but who have different ways of interpreting the world.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#285

Post by spinlock » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:40 AM UTC

leereeves wrote: post #173

tptacek wrote: post #130

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He was terminated at Google's discretion under at-will employment, the same standard that might allow you to be fired for coming to work with blue hair. He sought relief under an exception to at-will, the NLRA, which protects concerted action to improve working conditions. The NLRB determined that because the substance of his action involved requests that Google might reasonably determine would be problematic under E…

IMHO, the Advice Memo's conclusion is summarized by this sentence: > Damore's statements about immutable traits linked to sex — such as women’s heightened neuroticism and men’s prevalence at the top of the IQ distribution — were discriminatory and constituted sexual harassment, notwithstanding his effort to cloak his comments with “scientific” references and analysis and notwithstanding “not all women” disclaimers. I…

His assertions were bullshit. I thought Google should have fired him for bad science. He wasn't posting the analysis of a study he had done. He wasn't sharing data that he collected and wanted to analyze. He posted his opinions without any evidence backing them up.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#286

Post by ikeyany » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:40 AM UTC

Consultant32452 wrote: post #271

dejawu wrote: post #210

The way this whole thing played out makes me sad, because the guy did bring up a good point - current-day social justice leaves little avenue for well-meaning but unaware (perhaps through privilege) people to start conversations and learn about the reasons and motivations for certain efforts such as affirmative action and changes in vocabulary. Damore was indeed punished for speaking out, just as he feared. Then he s…

I feel like the progressive left THRUST Damore and anyone who might have similar thoughts/questions into the welcoming arms of the alt-right. I'm disappointed with the "Goolag" t-shirts, but he did lose his livelihood, had his professional reputation destroyed, and only a limited time to cash out. So this socially awkward nerd did what any sensible person would do, rode the wave that was sent his way the best he coul…

For a company supposedly full of smart people, you'd think they'd be able to gracefully handle so called "problematic" views like Damore's.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#287

Post by simonebrunozzi » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:41 AM UTC

eridius wrote: post #277

Consultant32452 wrote: post #271

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I feel like the progressive left THRUST Damore and anyone who might have similar thoughts/questions into the welcoming arms of the alt-right. I'm disappointed with the "Goolag" t-shirts, but he did lose his livelihood, had his professional reputation destroyed, and only a limited time to cash out. So this socially awkward nerd did what any sensible person would do, rode the wave that was sent his way the best he coul…

> but he did lose his livelihood, had his professional reputation destroyed, and only a limited time to cash out. Why are you writing this in the passive, as if this is an unfortunate thing that happened to him? He did all of that to himself. That memo created a hostile workplace and Google had no choice but to fire him. The outcome here isn't terrible, it's exactly what should have happened.

Nope. 100% disagree with you. Nobody should be fired for speaking out and/or starting a meaningful conversation. The opposite is censorship.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#288

Post by Consultant32452 » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:42 AM UTC

Aunche wrote: post #146

leereeves wrote: post #134

Earlier quoted context omitted.

He did cite evidence for his claims, but the most widely circulated copies of the memo removed his citations.

I mean the citations weren't particularly thorough, and he took some liberties with interpretation.

His statements were within the mainstream interpretations of modern clinical psychology and evolutionary biology. That doesn't make them certain facts by any means, but it's important that we not misrepresent things here.

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#289

Post by ncallaway » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:42 AM UTC

tptacek wrote: post #215

leereeves wrote: post #204

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're right, the NLRB isn't settling the science. It's saying that discussion of the science renders otherwise protected speech unprotected ("so harmful, discriminatory, and disruptive as to be unprotected"), and effectively removing workers' legal right to engage in science-based discussion of whether a 50/50 gender ratio is the appropriate goal.

You don't have a legal right to engage in science-based discussion of anything at your workplace! Damore's claim is subtly different. He relies on the fact that you do, under the NLRA, have the right to organize to change workplace conditions . But your right to do that is enforceable only through the NLRB, is an exception to at-will employment, and is trumped by federal and state EEO laws. When employee organizing c…

> You don't have a legal right to engage in science-based discussion of anything at your workplace!

This is the point that I think most people aren't getting. It seems like people are starting from the position that one should be able to have free and open conversations in the workplace. That a company shouldn't be able to fire an employee for dissent.

But this is _absolutely_ not the case with at will employment. If you say just about _anything_ in the workplace (or not at the workplace!) that your employer doesn't like they can terminate you.

I think the quoted sentence is the key to understanding this all. Your 1A rights only protect you from the government. Your employer may not—and does not have to—tolerate a "marketplace of ideas"

Re: Fired Google Engineer Loses Diversity Memo Challenge

#290

Post by azurezyq » Sat, Feb 17, 2018, 1:43 AM UTC

ggm wrote: post #100

What I think of his views (I disagree) is not germaine to the question: was it sensible to write and publish? It was not. That I disagree with his premise and polemic makes it easier for me to align desire and reality, but the reality of the situation doesn't change because of my desires: he was stupid to publish and Google were within their rights to fire him. All the other observed comments about liberal/conservati…

I think the problem is not if you should predict if Google will fire you because of this. It is "are you doing harm to anybody else?" Saying these words already embarrassed his female colleagues and is he still expecting Google withhold free speech within massive anger from females? Google's firing may be inevitable after a tipping point.

He's stupid. Something like liberal/conservative is totally unrelated, indeed.