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MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

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Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both approaches have downsides. The TCP/IP stack was built and used while the OSI model was being designed, and it won all the mindshare. Perhaps it would have been better to have separate presentation and session layers, but we don't; the application layer handles that stuff. It works well enough. OTOH, this quote is wise: > It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code (Bill Harlan) I think t…

> I think this is doubly true for databases; at least with obfuscated code, you can recover the underlying meaning with work and exploration. True for databases, but not true for businesses . > Losing or corrupting data is the worst thing a database can do. Clearly people building simple crud websites with slick JS features didn’t agree otherwise Mongo would be gone and Rethink would be worth hundreds of millions of…

>Clearly people building simple crud websites with slick JS features didn’t agree

I doubt it's that they didn't agree, it's more likely that the thought simply never occurred to them.

Mongo's marketing is directed with laser like focus on the beginner developer seeking out tutorials to build a website, etc. Questions about data consistency simply never arise in that context.

Later on that developer who was gently guided towards using mongo by all of the slick marketing will likely try to defend their decision when somebody attacks it ("their data consistency problems aren't that bad" or "data consistency isn't that important"), but that's something else.

Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#32

This is interesting, especially for micro-service architectures (one table, one service) that need to modify multiple tables.

No, it doesn’t work for that use-case. It would all need to happen within a single service in a single invocation.

To enable transactions across network boundaries, you need to enable the transactional safety at the application/API level.

And, for the record, one service per table is a terrible idea. It would have none of the benefits of a service-oriented architecture, while adding all the complexity and caveats of a distributed architecture.

Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#33
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or not, as the case may be https://www.mongodb.com/compare/mongodb-postgresql

Are you the Mat Keep who is Director of Product Marketing at MongoDB? If so then, FWIW, people don't often respond well to marketing links posted without identifying your connection to the company.

yes, my bad, i should have done that

Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Both approaches have downsides. The TCP/IP stack was built and used while the OSI model was being designed, and it won all the mindshare. Perhaps it would have been better to have separate presentation and session layers, but we don't; the application layer handles that stuff. It works well enough. OTOH, this quote is wise: > It is easier to optimize correct code than to correct optimized code (Bill Harlan) I think t…

> I think this is doubly true for databases; at least with obfuscated code, you can recover the underlying meaning with work and exploration. True for databases, but not true for businesses . > Losing or corrupting data is the worst thing a database can do. Clearly people building simple crud websites with slick JS features didn’t agree otherwise Mongo would be gone and Rethink would be worth hundreds of millions of…

>Clearly people building simple crud websites with slick JS features didn’t agree otherwise Mongo would be gone

Popularity is not always a good measure of what ideas are good ones.

Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

or not, as the case may be https://www.mongodb.com/compare/mongodb-postgresql

You're aware that the vendor will post gospel about their product on their own website? I'm not using Postgres, I use MySQL, but I can assert with 100% certainty that most of the "comparison" on that URL is just marketing bullshit. You're a prime example that this new-age bullshit works and that's what's worrying.

great. Do i declare i worked at mysql for 5 years as well? Both before and after Oracle acquisition

Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#36
post #2

Next up will be SQL compliance, and we'll be back to a relational database. I'm curious as to what the impact to speed will be, and what the use cases for these types of databases is now that the major SQL players support JSON.

I beg to differ. (Disclosure: I work for MongoDB.) Using JSON as your data model, rather than relational tables, lets you build different applications that don't need multi-document transactions as often, because the data is already together in a single document. But when you do need multi-document transactions (a small percentage of applications do, and only few use cases inside those applications), they are now ava…

> otherwise you wouldn't be capitalizing on the advantages of JSON

Shouldn't this be "otherwise you wouldn't be capitalizing on the advantages of a schemaless, document-oriented database"?

The fact that it's JSON (vs. some other format) seems immaterial

Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#37
I literally just finished making some code changes minutes ago to very carefully sequence a set of changes to some related documents to make sure that if write failures occur they'll have the least impact on our system. I've been very happy with our decision to use MongoDB because in the vast majority of cases I just don't need transactions, but there's that one place where using them will be a big win.

Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#38
post #6

MongoDB has successfully played the 'hype first, features later' strategy. Now it is well on the way to being a decent swiss-army-knife database. The RethinkDB retrospective[0] contains a lot of insight into how MongoDB has succeeded despite being vastly inferior on a technical level back when it first launched. I have to admit them a certain respect for executing their strategy so successfully. Choice quote: Every t…

It's linked in the RethinkDB essay, but it's always worth explicitly calling out the "Worse Is Better" essay:

http://dreamsongs.com/RiseOfWorseIsBetter.html

Ignore its lessons at your peril.

Your job isn't to build an engineering masterpiece. Your job, as pg says, is to build something people want.

Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#39
post #11
post #6

MongoDB has successfully played the 'hype first, features later' strategy. Now it is well on the way to being a decent swiss-army-knife database. The RethinkDB retrospective[0] contains a lot of insight into how MongoDB has succeeded despite being vastly inferior on a technical level back when it first launched. I have to admit them a certain respect for executing their strategy so successfully. Choice quote: Every t…

> MongoDB has successfully played the 'hype first, features later' strategy. Now it is well on the way to being a decent swiss-army-knife database. I have no idea how capable MongoDB is these days, as I haven't used Mongo in years (and even then it was not for long). However, I do not know any developers who, after living through the "hype first, features later" strategy, have been left with a positive enough opinion…

Epic had a post mortem blog post here that mentioned in passing they had stumped all the experts they could find to look at unsolveable issues they had with MongoDB. https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16340462 I kind of assumed the fix is going to be a rewrite with Postgres or MySQL.

Re: MongoDB gets support for multi-document ACID transactions

#40
post #6

MongoDB has successfully played the 'hype first, features later' strategy. Now it is well on the way to being a decent swiss-army-knife database. The RethinkDB retrospective[0] contains a lot of insight into how MongoDB has succeeded despite being vastly inferior on a technical level back when it first launched. I have to admit them a certain respect for executing their strategy so successfully. Choice quote: Every t…

With all its problems, I built a MEAN (MongoDB, Express, Angular, Node) app from zero knowledge to production 2 years ago far faster than this React, Apollo, GraphQL, and Postgres app I'm building from zero knowledge.
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