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Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

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Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#271

Post by rayiner »

megaman22 wrote: post #235
aws_ls wrote: post #222

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>most of it is just wiring form fields to databases in new and exciting ways Not commenting on other points, but may be you are looking at it from an angle of an expert who has mastered it, so everything looks trivial. As, clearly its much more than that. It is like building extension for machines - the brains and the controls and also pure information management. That's why projects run into millions of lines of cod…

Seriously. I regret that I only have one upvote to give. Things that we here take for granted are nigh impossible, or look like magic to 90% of the population. Even among the subset of people that are employed as software engineers, it can be sobering to realize how many of them struggle and flail at "just wiring form fields to databases in new and exciting ways."

It’s not that this stuff isn’t challenging. It’s that it’s not particularly more challenging than abstract statistics or organic chemistry or tax accounting, fields where you see lots of women.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#272

Post by jerf »

so33 wrote: post #93
dmichulke wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

FWIW, I often read about these PC-related things in the US (and sometimes Canada). Much less so in Europe, although they start playing catch-up with their new hate speech laws. As a German I can (mostly) speak my mind about men vs women, the only minefield there is IMO (remotely) Nazi-related stuff, e.g., try to criticize Israel foreign policy or mass immigration.

It’s funny. All I hear about in my social circles is people complaining how PC everything is now. It seems like it’s rather PC to complain about political correctness.

It's permissible to complain about PC, because that's too vague to implicate anybody for anything. Next time you hear that, ask them what specific politically correct opinion it is they'd like to express, and watch their face carefully, and you'll understand more.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#273

Post by Cthulhu_ »

aws_ls wrote: post #222
tptacek wrote: post #152

Once again: compared to other STEM fields, women participate less in CS than any other field except physics. By double digits percentage more in mathematics PhDs. Statistics is almost 50/50. Several rigorous earth sciences fields --- chem and biochem, for instance --- have 50% or greater female participation. One thing all these fields have in common is that they are more intellectually rigorous and harder to succeed…

>most of it is just wiring form fields to databases in new and exciting ways Not commenting on other points, but may be you are looking at it from an angle of an expert who has mastered it, so everything looks trivial. As, clearly its much more than that. It is like building extension for machines - the brains and the controls and also pure information management. That's why projects run into millions of lines of cod…

I think one important thing that is easily overlooked is that while the technical part of wiring form fields to databases is something a lot of people do (and can trivialise), all of the processes behind it - what to put in, and where it fits in with the domain of the application and company, is probably the harder part. If that makes any sense.

Technical implementation details vs the big picture / domain.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#274

Post by jerf »

edna314 wrote: post #261
moduspol wrote: post #241

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would equality of outcome in the NBA be a desirable goal? Why do we see so few East Asian, Hispanic, and Jewish NBA players? What policy would you create to correct this "injustice?"

> Would equality of outcome in the NBA be a desirable goal? If it wouldn't on average it's reasonable to assume that there is a bias of some sort. You can decide if this bias desirable or not. > Why do we see so few East Asian, Hispanic, and Jewish NBA players? What policy would you create to correct this "injustice?" Because they don't seem to care. If they would care, it is your decision whether you fight with them…

"Because they don't seem to care."

I believe we have established in this conversation that people claiming "difference of affinity" are just covering over their biases.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#275

Post by naasking »

Khol wrote: post #254
naasking wrote: post #232

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So one douche bag makes a whole field toxic? Come on.

If one douche bag can harp on without being challenged on this?

I still fail to see how people's reluctance to make a public display in an academic lecture is somehow reflective of sexism in the field as a whole. How exactly does this tirade you speak of have any more influence than some random street preacher spouting about our sins and the end times?

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#276

Post by Cthulhu_ »

jabot wrote: post #223
arkh wrote: post #195

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Garbage disposal is not what people usually call a cognitively demanding field. The gender imbalance is still worse than CS. What those two have in common are shitty working conditions. Yes, coding is done sitting in climate controlled offices. But it is mostly shit: shit doc, shit managers, shit clients, shit hours, shit tools. Only dumbfucks who don't mind shit conditions for more money would do it. I'm sure if you…

> Garbage disposal is not what people usually call a cognitively demanding field. The gender imbalance is still worse than CS. Well, it's more physically demanding, isn't it? But your point is that there are areas where society screws men over, and that nobody cares, right? So... Why do you raise that point when the topic is how society screws women over? Wouldn't it be better to improve society? In both places?

> Well, it's more physically demanding, isn't it?

Not anymore, a lot of it is automated now so if you can drive and operate some buttons (and a broom if need be) you should be able to get a job in that area.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#277

Post by geodel »

dragandj wrote: post #82
rayiner wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Damore’s screed was also rife with fallacies and unsupported generalizations, let’s not forget that. It drives me nuts that his lack of “charisma” (rather than his lack of logical reasoning skills or writing ability) is what people are saying got him fired. If he’d written a manifesto that sloppy on a technical topic people would’ve ripped him to shreds.

His logical reasoning skills seemed to be quite all right for Google when he passed their (challenging) hiring process. How the hell he managed to lose that while working there? As for his writing ability, it may not be at the level of Mark Twain, but it seems quite eloquent to me...

All along his mistake is not knowing what not to write in current climate.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#278

Post by vbtemp »

tptacek wrote: post #152

Once again: compared to other STEM fields, women participate less in CS than any other field except physics. By double digits percentage more in mathematics PhDs. Statistics is almost 50/50. Several rigorous earth sciences fields --- chem and biochem, for instance --- have 50% or greater female participation. One thing all these fields have in common is that they are more intellectually rigorous and harder to succeed…

> most of it is just wiring form fields to databases in new and exciting ways.

I'm so sorry to hear you've had an underwhelming career working on boring projects. There's so much more that's passed you by.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#279

Post by weeelvil »

aws_ls wrote: post #222
tptacek wrote: post #152

Once again: compared to other STEM fields, women participate less in CS than any other field except physics. By double digits percentage more in mathematics PhDs. Statistics is almost 50/50. Several rigorous earth sciences fields --- chem and biochem, for instance --- have 50% or greater female participation. One thing all these fields have in common is that they are more intellectually rigorous and harder to succeed…

>most of it is just wiring form fields to databases in new and exciting ways Not commenting on other points, but may be you are looking at it from an angle of an expert who has mastered it, so everything looks trivial. As, clearly its much more than that. It is like building extension for machines - the brains and the controls and also pure information management. That's why projects run into millions of lines of cod…

I agree with tptacek here. Based on just my experience (contractor then corporate programmer for the last decade), probably 99% of programming work out there in the world is mechanical rote that just involves reading comprehension and the ability to mechanically execute steps in some order. Calling this type of work complex only means someone fucked up somewhere.

Certainly there are specializations that are pushing the edge of research, but we are talking about an industry here, not the few research-y jobs that still exist.

Re: Sex and STEM: Stubborn Facts and Stubborn Ideologies

#280

Post by [deleted] »

blub wrote: post #256
qwr23qwer wrote: post #183

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe women just see CS for what it is - 'simly not that hard, wiring form fields to databases', and think, let others tap away at the keyboards, I'll be a surgeon or whatever. So, if that were the case, would you say that it's fair to now force these would be neuro surgeons, doctors, lawyers, microbiologists, etc.. to 'wire fields to databases', because in 2018 some people believe that has a somewhat high status in…

A female relative was considering a career change, but even though the salary and perks sounded nice, the work itself seemed meaningless to her. Another friend did make the jump, mostly for the money and career opportunities and she's struggling and feeling a bit demotivated. The CS theory is quite hard, and it's not something she's especially interested in. These anecdotes don't prove anything, but I've been thinkin…

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