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MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

mpegla.com

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Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#91

Post by mmozeiko »

userbinator wrote: post #86
herogreen wrote: post #10

I wonder if this will affect the existence of the Raspberry Pi's binary blob ? I remember Liz Upton saying "[MPEG2 licensing] is a reason we have to keep the blob, unfortunately, or we’d be sued into a smoking hole in the ground by the MPEG LA" on this page: https://www.raspberrypi.org/blog/a-birthday-present-from-bro... Also does it mean that the Raspberry Fundation could provide the MPEG2 hardware decoder license k…

I'm actually surprised that that hasn't been cracked yet --- or at least, a quick search didn't find anything (do let me know otherwise!); as we all know too well these days, Google isn't particularly neutral in terms of what search results it wants to show anymore. That said, the RPi being the closed system it is, it's not surprising that no real hacker/cracker types would bother with it and the community remains ma…

It is cracked. Here's a simple patch: https://www.reddit.com/r/raspberry_pi/comments/5x7xbo/patch_...

Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#92

Post by phkahler »

Houshalter wrote: post #79
amluto wrote: post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Abolish it entirely. I'm not really kidding. I think that evidence that patents are beneficial in any field is lacking. Alternatively, a few major reforms would help. For example: 1. Decrease patent terms to just a few years in most fields. 2. Make it clear that math, in any form, is not patentable. Codec patents, for example, should never have been valid. 3. Eliminate submarine patents. Specifically, require patent…

>Make it clear that math, in any form, is not patentable. Ok but CRISPR isn't math. And the distinction between designing an algorithm and designing a machine is kind of arbitrary. If you are going to get rid of one you should get rid of the other and abolish patents entirely.

CRISPR was discovered, not invented. At least the core concepts should not be patentable under any system. And then any inventions around it done at publicly funded institutions should probably not be patentable under any system.

Companies don't really invent very much, they usually find things or take existing things and try to monopolize them with patents.

Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#93

Post by Solar19 »

amluto wrote: post #77
notyourwork wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Without disagreeing I would encourage you to provide an alternative solution to the current (as you describe) broken system. The system was put in place to protect us, if it isn't serving its purpose we need to be more objective and declare how it could be better implemented.

Abolish it entirely. I'm not really kidding. I think that evidence that patents are beneficial in any field is lacking. Alternatively, a few major reforms would help. For example: 1. Decrease patent terms to just a few years in most fields. 2. Make it clear that math, in any form, is not patentable. Codec patents, for example, should never have been valid. 3. Eliminate submarine patents. Specifically, require patent…

I agree with some of this, and I think most software patents are garbage and should not be legally permitted. But I'm stuck on codecs. Codecs are real, as real as a bag of apples. And they're complicated, extremely specific (and necessarily formally specified), and the result of a lot of work, sometimes brilliant work.

If there's any software that has a chance of convincing me of patent worthiness, it's probably codecs. Or at least the co(d) part. I'm muddled on decoding because it seems like just figuring out how to read something should be treated differently.

Is the term 20 years now? That's too long for any kind of software, even codecs. I think an important principle that should influence the design of patent law is the rough likelihood of the invention being made by others, or qualitatively matched or exceeded by others, in various spans of time. (Of course you have to model this assuming certain patent laws in place, as well as no patent system at all, to really do it right.)

I despise patent predators, née trolls. But MPEG-LA isn't a good example for me to work with because I think they're actual companies that do stuff – make movies, Blu-ray players, TVs, etc. Some of them invented DVD and Blu-ray probably, and evidently they invented MPEG-2, which I remember was viewed as pretty slick and technically awesome when it came out (as were DVDs – I remember VCRs and boy did they suck).

But 20 years? Yeah, no, this stuff should be 10 at most. I mean, would it hurt us to have 10 year terms on codecs? Would we get lesser quality codecs? I doubt it. HEVC is pretty amazing though, and it's clearly better than VP9, so it looks like the proprietary stuff beats open source in this field (tiny sample, yes, but there are many more examples available). Daala seemed to be going nowhere. Mozilla didn't seem to be able to finish it. Now some companies have teamed up for AV1, FOSS. I guess we'll see how good it is compared to HEVC.

Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#94

Post by cuchoi »

yarg wrote: post #60
jacquesm wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Be careful, you just might get what you wish for. There definitely are major problems with the patent system and with copyright but without them there would be other problems taking the place of the ones that we have now. Reform is the way to go, and reform - good reform anyway - is hard to get right.

I don't think reform's actually that hard - with unbiased intentions (whose lobbyist is that?). To be honest, it would be hard to fuck things up any worse than they already are. Technically competent people (in the field of the patent) should be performing the reviews, they should be given the time that they need to do so. I believe there is a shared commercial justification for both patents and copyright: protection…

But doing all this is hard. Saying "with unbiased intentions", "given the time that they need to do so", and others is like assuming a spherical cow.

Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#95

Post by davidp »

dragonwriter wrote: post #76
davidp wrote: post #73

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Copyright is the foundation of all FLOSS licenses, from GPL to MIT. You might know that already, but that's a sharp double-edged sword you're swinging.

Without copyright, you don't need a license for content to be Free. There may be another edge to the sword, but it ain't the one you are pointing at.

With the GPL at least, its major clauses are aimed at restricting software from being incorporated into closed systems. I don't know if eliminating that control was what the GP had in mind, but it would be one of the perhaps-unexpected effects.

See also: Licenses that prohibit use for military purposes or other things the authors consider undesirable.

Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#96

Post by phkahler »

ythn wrote: post #82
eikenberry wrote: post #57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Reform would be best, but Abolishing them would be better than the status quo.

Wouldn't abolishing them create an out of control copycat shovelware economy worse than the app stores? I mean, if you can blatantly rip off other people's IP

The ripoffs would have to compete. Some would compete on price, which might benefit the public by making things more available. Others might compete on quality, which might benefit the public by having alternatives to the cheapest crap someone can produce. Neither of those things happen automatically with patents.

Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#97

Post by astrange »

taeric wrote: post #5
SllX wrote: post #3

An obsolete movie format, but a large amount of stored media exists in this format so ultimately a win. I would like to say something to the effect of there being just a tiny bit less rent-seeking in the world today, but I'm sure by tomorrow the seeds will be planted for millions more rent-seeking opportunities in the future.

My understanding from a long time ago was that the formats were actually competitive if you consider computation requirements. Size of the data was larger, but not by so much that it was scary. There a good modern comparison of the formats?

This isn't far off especially if you count on-CPU decoding. MPEG2 is sensible for the time, but can't scale to larger pixel resolutions or lower bitrates well.

The generation after MPEG2 (VP7, MPEG4 ASP, Theora) though, pretty much sucked universally and there was no good reason for it… second-system effect?

Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#98

Post by digi_owl »

digi_owl wrote: post #25
stickydink wrote: post #13

Earlier quoted context omitted.

DVDs are still created and purchased all over the world, I don't think it's quite obsolete yet?

And likely never will be. Newer codecs basically exist because video resolutions outpace storage space (for questionable benefits). MPEG2, much like MP3, are "good enough" for most common usage.

And people completely gloss over the "good enough" part, and head straight to arguing bitrates and resolutions.

Pop quiz hotshots, why did the CD become a big hit, but the DVD-A died a quiet death?

Answer, because there was no convenience to be had with upgrading!

The CD was a massive improvement of convenience over the cassette tape or LP record. Now you could instantly find the one song you wanted, and skip between them with the push of a button.

Similarly there is no convenience upgrade to go from MP3 to FLAC or some other audio format.

And the same pattern plays out with video.

DVD video was a smash hit because no more having to rewind that VHS, and they took up a whole lot less space on the shelf (buying a TV series season on VHS was downright crazy for the physical space it would require).

BR and similar is simply not enough of a convenience upgrade.

Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#99

Post by mrmondo »

amelius wrote: post #22

As an aside, MPEG-LA already moved on, forming other patent pools such as for CRISPR (the gene editing technology). See their website: http://www.mpegla.com/main/default.aspx

My god, that website is dreadful, not just poor / dated design but no TLS/HTTPS with a login form!

It's Sharepoint... and it looks to be proudly developed by https://sharepointexperience.com

Re: MPEG-2 Patents Have Expired

#100

Post by ttsda »

Houshalter wrote: post #81
digi_owl wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And likely never will be. Newer codecs basically exist because video resolutions outpace storage space (for questionable benefits). MPEG2, much like MP3, are "good enough" for most common usage.

Bandwidth and storage have been slowing down and stagnating for some time now. My internet isn't much faster than 10 years ago. The difference between video codecs makes a huge difference in the quality of video I get to see.

My internet is way faster compared to 2008. Probably had something like 10Mbps back then, paying less for 1Gbps fiber-to-the-home now.
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