Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

Who Killed the Junior Developer?

medium.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

721–730 of 803 posts

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#721

Post by downrightmike »

bbarn wrote: post #427
opportune wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've noticed this too. There are only a few rational explanations 1. Senior devs aren't paid enough for the value they bring to the company (or conversely, junior devs are paid too much for that value) 2. Investing in junior devs gives a good enough ROI that it's worth overpaying them for a few years. That is, after e.g. three years, enough junior devs have stuck around that they've accumulated enough org-specific kn…

I think #2 is just dead wrong. The easiest way to change your status - whether that's income or losing your junior title - is to move jobs. I think the real reason we see so few junior devs now is they just aren't good for the companies paying them. Why invest in a junior developer when almost certainly they will (and should!) leave your company to get more money and different experiences.

reevaluate what they're being paid and promote them from junior to senior and pay them.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#722

Post by mywittyname »

jerf wrote: post #414

A hypothesis for part of the problem that I've scrolled through most of this conversation and still not seen: Junior developers are having a hard time finding a job because the tasks have gotten harder . As easy as people may claim "cloud" is, if a junior developer has to learn the three Javascript libraries, two backend languages, a devops cloud deployment system, and three monitoring technologies just to be able to…

I've noticed this as well. The personal project that netted me my first job was really just a LAMP CRUD site for torrents. Not a single person would be impressed by that today.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#723

Post by aidenn0 »

skjerns wrote: post #250
derrekl wrote: post #122

The problem is squashed salaries. I’ll have junior devs or people straight out of code school asking for 75-80% the salary of a solid senior dev. If I have to make a bet on who will be easier to manage and get productive 4 seniors vs 5 juniors for the same total expenditure I’ll choose the seniors every time. Even at 2 to 1 I’m taking seniors. Maybe around 3 or 4 to 1 juniors might look better. But that means junior…

is 50k really such a bad starting salary or is there such a big difference between US and EU?

12 years ago I started out of college at $75k. Starting salaries are much higher now if you live in a major tech area (100k+ for SF Bay or new york city).

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#724

Post by mark-r »

nradov wrote: post #469
binarycheese wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you will need two senior devs. This is because rockstar devs rarely want to mentor junior devs nor attend meetings. Most inventors are not professors.

To a first approximation there is no such thing as a "rockstar" developer. I mean a few of them exist, but the actual stars (not poseur wannabes) are already locked down doing other things so it isn't possible to hire them anyway. If you're hiring or building a team you have to target developers who are actually available , not the stars.

Thus the need to hire junior developers. Some very small percentage of them will turn out to be rockstars, and they'll already be working for you.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#725

Post by Karrot_Kream »

oldandtired wrote: post #716
logfromblammo wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You hire the rockstar to write version 1. That's the one that gets you to market fast, and the one you should be planning on throwing away. It's the one you keep in production as your non-rockstar ninja and guru coders write version 2 from scratch. Once you release version 2, you really need to fire your rockstar. They will never be happy in maintenance mode, and that's fine, because they're usually bad at writing fo…

Labels like rockstar, guru and ninja are labels we don't need. We need competent generalists and competent specialists who can work in teams as well as work alone and can communicate with those who are part of the team or part of the management and user bases. When a person takes on for themselves labels like rockstar, guru, ninja, etc. I don't doubt that they can write code, but I certainly doubt that they can write…

We don't need titles like that at all. Let's change rockstar to MVP Developer, Ninja to Builder, Guru to Experienced Builder, and the 3rd type of developer described in GP to Maintenance Developer. I think the industry could go a long way if it admits that it needs all 4 of these types of developers, so that expectations were transparent for employees and needs are transparent for developers.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#726

Post by Karrot_Kream »

logfromblammo wrote: post #553
devopsforlyfe wrote: post #523

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You are confusing senior devs and rockstar devs. Rockstars are lone wolves, write unmaintainable code that works quickly for demos but gives the company pain for years to come as nobody can figure out how to make it stable or maintain it. A rockstar's reputation is self reinforcing because it's easy to get a lot of shit done when one doesn't have to worry about maintainability, communication with the rest of the team…

You hire the rockstar to write version 1. That's the one that gets you to market fast, and the one you should be planning on throwing away. It's the one you keep in production as your non-rockstar ninja and guru coders write version 2 from scratch. Once you release version 2, you really need to fire your rockstar. They will never be happy in maintenance mode, and that's fine, because they're usually bad at writing fo…

A gem of a comment. This is why I come to HN.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#727

Post by xigency »

g051051 wrote: post #318
virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

> good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! Pfft. I'm about as "senior" as it gets and I'm generally the fastest developer in any team I'm on. I've never met a junior dev that could hold a candle to me, and most senior devs I know are the same...we're coding monsters.

What about cross-discipline? What if a problem comes up that would be better solved with technology Y instead of X and you are an X master but random intern happens to know Y. Are you still the fastest? What if the intern is better at making slides for code reviews that show important trends? Or they can write fantastic documentation? Or tools?

I'm sure you're a quick learner but at least in scenarios I've worked in there are often many, many possible solutions and no specific "right answer."

After all, it's hard for anyone to be right all of the time.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#728

Post by g051051 »

xigency wrote: post #727
g051051 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! Pfft. I'm about as "senior" as it gets and I'm generally the fastest developer in any team I'm on. I've never met a junior dev that could hold a candle to me, and most senior devs I know are the same...we're coding monsters.

What about cross-discipline? What if a problem comes up that would be better solved with technology Y instead of X and you are an X master but random intern happens to know Y. Are you still the fastest? What if the intern is better at making slides for code reviews that show important trends? Or they can write fantastic documentation? Or tools? I'm sure you're a quick learner but at least in scenarios I've worked in…

None of that has anything to do with the original blanket assertion of "good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too!".

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#729

Post by g051051 »

ranci wrote: post #714
g051051 wrote: post #407

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't view the value I add as "can code features faster" I do, at least partly. I can code so much faster that my cost per feature is lower than a junior dev.

Your cost is less by being paid more? Seems legit

My cost is less by doing more in the same amount of time.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#730

Post by bovermyer »

CryoLogic wrote: post #654
bovermyer wrote: post #626

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Building diversity is an important component of forward progress, since it engenders a broader experiential pool to draw from. In the case of gender, female developers have been shut out of the industry for long enough that corrective action has to be taken to balance the scales. Until such time as that happens, "sex discrimination against men" is impossible.

It is still descrimination. "Discrimination: the act, practice, or an instance of discriminating categorically rather than individually" - Merriam Webster Dictionary Please don't bend what the word means just because others do. If we have our own meanings for every word, than the words mean nothing.

Fair enough.

But it's discrimination with a higher purpose.

Post reply on HN