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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#711

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All copyright on work done on my laptop belongs to me, and only me. You can 'rent' it by paying me my wage but as soon as I leave, all code on it is mine and I'm taking it with me for future 'reference'. Don't know how this works legally but since I'm not a self employed person who has a business contract, I'm pretty sure you cannot legally force someone to use their own stuff without compensation. In the US at least…

Why are the people who are so cocksure always the ones who know the least? “I’ve (incorrectly) interpreted copyright law, and I admit I don’t know how the law works, but I’m pretty sure I’m right.”

They don't think the rules apply to them, so they don't care what the rules are.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#712
post #640

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> A junior dev after months of training could jump ship for much better comp now that they're less junior or that suddenly some other company's product interests them more. Sure, but that's why you need to give people raises in line with market rates if you don't want to experience high turnover. That goes for junior and more senior people. Companies often don't want to give big raises as junior people transition int…

I think there is a lot of assumptions being made in regards to what training actually is. In software development field change is constant a senior dev can not afford to stop learning new techniques, frameworks, etc. that’s not something you just get mentored at and you’re set for the rest of your career. The issue that seems to be ignored here is the fact that good devs are active learners on their own and do not ty…

Devs are constantly learning but there's a still a lot at tech jobs that you are paying people to learn once. Some of it is how to get around in legacy code bases that haven't been worth replacing yet, but even things like "this is how you file an expense report" add up in time and need to be repeated for every new hire

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#713
post #327

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

As a non-developer who works directly with devs, I've always thought this: I've heard that being a dev is 90% thinking about code and 10% writing it. In my experience you hire senior devs to do the thinking part and junior devs to do the writing part while learning how to do the thinking part.

Hiring devs to just think is part of what creates these convoluted mess of systems. It's impossible to convey and idea well enough that another person could implement it in the same fashion. Look at language specifications: they are written by top-tier developers, but when implemented by other equally top-tier developers, there is an inevitable difference of opinion.

Senior developers should be writing code for important systems, and juniors should be writing the less important bits. That way, they get the opportunity to experiment without the company being stuck with a critical system written by a person who reinvented Yet Another Elliptical Wheel.

Mentoring is important and all, but at some point, you just have to start working.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#714

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Well, I am someone with 25 years of experience, does that count as "worked closely with"? Good junior devs are... well, by definition, good. They're just younger, and less experienced - but every bit as smart as you are, and pretty skilled in the art of coding. If anything, they have more time than I do and are a lot more eager to "prove themselves". I don't view the value I add as "can code features faster"...

> I don't view the value I add as "can code features faster" I do, at least partly. I can code so much faster that my cost per feature is lower than a junior dev.

Your cost is less by being paid more? Seems legit

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#715
post #461

I’m the cofounder of a YC-backed Computer Science academy ( https://LambdaSchool.com/computer-science ), and we’ve noticed a few things: 1. The junior dev market is flooded. It’s also flooded with people that cannot code. We’ve done quite a bit of analysis, and we’re talking 10% can write fizzbuzz. Bootcamps are pumping people out as fast as they can collect money, and while some are solid juniors many are just compl…

What I get from your post is that in less than 10 years, people that get such a short training will be good regardless. Maybe then good programmers will become a commodity: this will surely change a thing or two.

I think that would be true if the demand for programmers weren’t also increasing exponentially

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#716

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You are confusing senior devs and rockstar devs. Rockstars are lone wolves, write unmaintainable code that works quickly for demos but gives the company pain for years to come as nobody can figure out how to make it stable or maintain it. A rockstar's reputation is self reinforcing because it's easy to get a lot of shit done when one doesn't have to worry about maintainability, communication with the rest of the team…

You hire the rockstar to write version 1. That's the one that gets you to market fast, and the one you should be planning on throwing away. It's the one you keep in production as your non-rockstar ninja and guru coders write version 2 from scratch. Once you release version 2, you really need to fire your rockstar. They will never be happy in maintenance mode, and that's fine, because they're usually bad at writing fo…

Labels like rockstar, guru and ninja are labels we don't need. We need competent generalists and competent specialists who can work in teams as well as work alone and can communicate with those who are part of the team or part of the management and user bases.

When a person takes on for themselves labels like rockstar, guru, ninja, etc. I don't doubt that they can write code, but I certainly doubt that they can write code that fulfils the needs of those who will be using it.

Labels likes these are a detriment to the profession. If we want businesses to take note and consider those in the IT profession to be anything more than ignored, we need to lift our game a long way.

What is IT known for (in the general sense), games, social media, search engines and lots of crappy software that users have to fight to get anything done.

Yet we have people and companies that produce great software that fulfils the needs of those who use it in a way that is not detrimental to those users.

It's coming up to forty years that I have been involved with the industry and I hear complaints every day from users who are frustrated by the inconsistencies in the software they are using, whether it be social media, business software, games, etc.

In general, as an industry, we are far too arrogant about our own self-importance and what we develop. Whether it be the likes of Apple, Oracle, IBM, Google, etc, the industry has forgotten that they only exist as long as people will tolerate the bull dust that is thrown at them by these companies. We are always looking for the "next big thing", yet many of the actual needs that we could be filling are not being done. We like flashy and not substance.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#717

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Then they aren't a rockstar. And frankly, I've spent my career cleaning up the obfuscated, badly documented, untested code of "rockstar" devs. The idea of a "rockstar" you seem to be referring to has, in my experience, been a dev who can go into a corner and pump out high volumes of code with little supervision or collaboration. That's great, except no one else can make sense of the code they pump out, so when it com…

Near as I can tell, the term stems from the 80s computer gaming industry, in which the game studio heads got the idea to promote the individual developers by name as if they were rock stars, and oftentimes attempt to treat them to the "rock star lifestyle" (girls, parties, etc.) in order to keep their output from flagging. In those days, games were often written by teams as small as one, and no bigger than a handful…

Electronic Arts started as an outfit for people like this, as did Activision. It's saddening to see how much their ethos has changed in the ensuing 30-40 years.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#718
post #259

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I think it's 2. I don't see why senior dev salaries should go any higher. At that point it would be easier to open office overseas even for smaller shops.

>I don't see why senior dev salaries should go any higher Because they're vastly underpaid compared to the value they produce. >At that point it would be easier to open office overseas even for smaller shops. Which means you're getting junior devs, at best. The entire concept of outsourcing hangs on the idea that the people being outsourced to will behave exactly the opposite of those doing the outsourcing, i.e. not…

> Well they do care: when they get senior they leave and go somewhere they can earn western money.

It seems like the offshore contracting companies have a better grasp on how to maintain tech workers than the companies that hired them do. I've noticed my contracting counterparts get regular performance reviews, decent raises, and title changes actually open up doors for them.

I get my regular 2% a annual bump and any title change has no impact on my actual work.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#719
post #470

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I'd argue that it's absurd that we still think 120k is a lot of money when we look around at how expensive things like property are. My father, with a modest education and a modest first job, was able to get married, raise a child and buy a house near London well before he was 30. Property in that area is now worth hundreds of thousands and would require a six-figure salary (supposedly a lot of money!!) to be able to…

This is exactly how I frame salary negotiations living in a big city. If you want to pay me less, fix the housing market. Otherwise, you need to pay me enough to buy the shittiest home/condo within 4 hours of the office. That's a six-figure salary in a big city. If boomers and management are upset that they have to pay adults, adult salaries, that is their own over-entitlement causing their distress. Fuck you, pay me…

Apart from the wishing boomers to hurry up and die-- I don't want that-- (I'd rather we all learn from each other, but I hear you) I agree with your frustration here. But it isn't Boomers who are at fault, not really. They straddle eras in an uncomfortable way for vision. It is more the current structure of macro-economics. It just isn't set up for collaboration or organic evolution of the best ideas- it doesn't allow the diversity of input the best ideas require for design and implementation. We need to change the structure with distributed systems; we need to create empowering structures. We need to find ways to build in balance and incentive that are accessible to everyone, otherwise we are left with nihilism as a strategy. And that isn't the philosophy anyone enjoys going forward with.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#720

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> Did those questions end up being seriously relevant to the work? Oh, God no. I've never been asked a question in a job interview that was in any way relevant to the work I actually ended up doing.

Only one question has ever been relevant for me. It was about map reduce for locations and the job was using map reduce on location data...

At the job I have now, they spent the whole interview session asking about Python, Scala, machine learning, natural language processing, Spark and Hadoop clustering. I've been doing Angular 2 front-end work since I started.
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