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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#571

Post by rapfaria »

runedog wrote: post #441
vinceguidry wrote: post #364

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

What do you suggest for those of us who believe we would be terrible at management? Add to that, I also think I would be miserable doing it.

I've come to terms that I want to be a developer for as long as possible.

This thread can also help: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=7372997

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#572

Post by ams6110 »

megaman22 wrote: post #482
ams6110 wrote: post #478

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> accountants leave school fully capable of employment Well, fully capable of entry-level employment. Anyone who graduates from a reputable school with a Comp. Sci. or InfoSys type of major is also fully capable of entry-level employment. Accountants aren't really capable of anything but grunt work until they pass the CPA which normally is after several years of grunt work and additional learning and study. Programme…

> Anyone who graduates from a reputable school with a Comp. Sci. or InfoSys type of major is also fully capable of entry-level employment. No, they're really not, for at least a year. It takes at least that long for most new graduates to get over the hump and learn enough of the practical skills and industry practices that their university left them woefully ignorant of, so that they can start being marginally useful…

All of those things comprise "entry level" to me. Maybe we have differnent concepts of what an "entry level" job is. To me, entry level == first job. The candidate has been a student but never a professional. They won't have practical skills or much knowledge of industry practices.

I'm not an accountant but I did do a business minor and I don't see this being much different for new accountant hires vs. new developer hires.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#573

Post by nawitus »

jacquesm wrote: post #363
dep_b wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Netherlands is a special place in Software Hell. Where the non-suits are only a cost. "Devs can't be cheap enough! We can't find decent devs!"

That's a silly generalization. I've got a pretty good overview of software development in Western Europe and NL isn't a special place for better or worse compared to the surrounding countries. If you want to get paid a lot more and you have the right skills the City or Silicon Valley are good options (assuming you are allowed to move there).

What city?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#574

Post by mattmanser »

wccrawford wrote: post #497
apthnz wrote: post #138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

As someone starting to teach myself how to code, I'd be interested to hear more about the basic coding tasks people are failing at.

We have a pre-interview test that is basically "use flickr's api to show some pictures", with a few details about how the pictures are sized and arranged. Applicants that have gone to bootcamps and even college frequently fail this miserably. Many of the rest fail to understand the details. We even had one use a completely different end point than the one specified by URL to the documentation. Some have just given up…

That's, errr, a very high bar you got there.

People got it working, showing they can code just fine, and you fail them because they got some details wrong?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#575

Post by spiznnx »

aperrien wrote: post #558
delecti wrote: post #526

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your story reminds me of the joke/anecdote of the way to cheat on tests. You religiously look over your notes and the textbook in the weeks leading up to the test, so that when you take the test it's like you have a comprehensive cheat sheet with you, but in your head . If the hiring process wasn't able to distinguish between you or who they thought they were looking for, then it wasn't your responsibility to inform…

I may be dense here, but what's the difference between a cheat sheet in your head and actually knowing the topic?

That's the joke he referenced. Although there is a difference between knowing something and memorizing answers.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#576

Post by pascalxus »

I had a similar experience. 15 years ago, with less than 1 year of experience I couldn't get a job to save my life. I had to work for companies for free! 5-10 years later, I was getting up to 5 offers for a job while interviewing.

And yet, it's not like junior developers suck. I've seen plenty of junior developers who can build up an application, no problem. There might be some mistakes along the way, but they're able to get the job done.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#577

Post by madamelic »

bobthechef wrote: post #366

Really? The "killing" of the junior developer seems like an anecdotal claim. Hasn't ageism been a concern here on HN? Doesn't that tend to suggest that older, and thus more senior developers are "discriminated against" in favor of younger, CHEAPER labor? The reasons being that either: - you don't need a senior developer for your needs - you can't fork out for a senior developer - you could really use a senior develop…

>- you don't understand the difference between a junior and a senior developer

I think it is this. The title Sr Engineer is handed out constantly to people with little to no experience. You are basically Junior for a year then you get the title change. It is a bit absurd.

So yes, there is a shortage of Jr engineers... but there are plenty of not very good Sr Engineers who should be Jr Engineers.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#578

Post by shabangcohen »

jmvoodoo wrote: post #381
vinceguidry wrote: post #364

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

My "standard" team typically has two jr engineers, and two Sr engineers. When we hire Sr engineers we hire people that like to mentor others and see it as part of being Sr. Jr engineers know that in order to become Sr one of the skills they need to master is mentoring. This is 100% a management issue, and it starts at the hiring filter. Hiring Jrs btw is its own skill as you are filtering for potential not skill or k…

As a woman currently applying/interviewing for a new grad role, I think you're definitely right about most companies caring only about current knowledge/skill.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#579

Post by sethammons »

godot wrote: post #152
nathanaldensr wrote: post #6

I love mentoring. I always have. I used to help out other kids in my high school programming classes. Despite holding several high-level software development positions, what is the total number of times I've been asked by management to mentor more junior folks? Zero. I did it because I love sharing knowledge and I like seeing looks of understanding appear on my colleagues' faces when they "get something" for the firs…

I feel like the current trend of agile development process common in startups now somewhat works against senior devs' interests to mentor junior devs. There simply isn't time allocated for this. Senior devs are held accountable for what they deliver, and doing so on time. This is among other things like code reviewing PRs and attending meetings. For most senior devs working under this circumstance, the best they coul…

We account for that during spring planning. We plan on pairing on tasks/stories for general knowledge transfer and mentoring. If this affects velocity, that is actually a good thing (tm). Velocity should decrease when onboarding and mentoring, and then should increase as those team members become more efficient.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#580

Post by ethbro »

jmvoodoo wrote: post #422
binarycheese wrote: post #403

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Then you will need two senior devs. This is because rockstar devs rarely want to mentor junior devs nor attend meetings. Most inventors are not professors.

First off I hate the phrase "Rockstar dev" because it gives the impression that someone can be successful without the support of the team, which is wrong. Second, I hear this extremely often: Rockstar devs don't like to mentor, Rockstar devs don't like to write documentation, Rockstar devs don't like to write tests. At what point do you need to reevaluate your definition of a rockstar dev? The hiring filter is a powe…

Related to this: know what you're hiring for.

Are you looking for someone who can parachute in with expertise on a specific tech and churn out working code themselves?

Or are you willing to accept more lag time and less initial code productivity in exchange for a deeper bench and sustainable team?

There are times and places for both of these developer types...

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