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Who Killed the Junior Developer?
471–480 of 803 posts
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#472A hypothesis for part of the problem that I've scrolled through most of this conversation and still not seen: Junior developers are having a hard time finding a job because the tasks have gotten harder . As easy as people may claim "cloud" is, if a junior developer has to learn the three Javascript libraries, two backend languages, a devops cloud deployment system, and three monitoring technologies just to be able to…
I find this observation really interesting! I've found that 10 years ago I was a more 'mature' full stack developer - I did front end, backend and ops type stuff. As complexity has grown I've absolutely shied away from keeping up with anything on the frontend and I avoid ops things as much as possible. It's probably not very wise on my part. These days I would absolutely not be able to call myself a full stack dev.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#473Earlier quoted context omitted.
I think bootcamps are flooding the market with juniors. This may be the source of the issue. It could be a supply side issue. Too many juniors leads to the perception that nobody is hiring juniors.
Or maybe too many badly trained people (sorry a 6 week JS course doesn't make you a good developper) are trying to bullshit themselves through interviews, which casts a bad light on all of them.
Could be both. Could be too many badly trained people and too many people who are "good enough." I know plenty of bootcamp developers who have successfully gotten a job.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#474Most junior level positions are being filled with the massive influx of new grads from really strong intern programs at most companies now. If you're in college now, make sure you get an internship at a company in your field. If it's too late for that, then you'll have to do a little extra work and probably work on a couple side projects and post them on GitHub. That first job will always be the hardest to get, so do…
I remember being a Sophomore in college 5 years ago, and it was hard even finding an internship. My first internship was unpaid because it was the only one that actually called me back. It's funny how many business cards I picked up from recruiters during career fairs, only to have none of them return my calls or emails.
This seems like a pretty common misunderstanding of the point of recruiting events.
The recruiters aren’t there to let you know they’ve got jobs. They’re there to talk in person to young people, and figure out which ones have passion for the company/project/etc., and put the passionate people’s resumes at the top of the queue.
If you just pick up a business card, it’s indistinguishable from being a cold call/spray and pray resume sender; companies and recruiters get so many of these there’s a good chance no human ever even looked at your resume.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#475Earlier quoted context omitted.
I directly disputed the central thesis that OP (the person I was responding to, not the article) was putting forth, that senior developers shouldn't be coding: > You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! > "Mentoring" is basically the job you hire a senior dev to do What other "points" did OP make?
Your reading comprehension suffers under your fragile ego. Nobody said 'senior developers shouldn't be coding'. The topic is about a lack of mentoring for junior devs. You being a certified 100x rockstar developer is totally fine but irrelevant, because you don't scale. What would scale is if you were to start coaching junior devs, because if you don't, all the juniors will keep reinventing 'left-pad' in this week's…
> Your reading comprehension suffers under your fragile ego. Nobody said 'senior developers shouldn't be coding'.
That is exactly what the post I was responding to said, and I've quoted it several times. Here it is a gain, since you keep glossing over it:
> You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too!
> "Mentoring" is basically the job you hire a senior dev to do
So, yes, the person I responded to said "senior developers shouldn't be coding'".
> You being a certified 100x rockstar developer is totally fine but irrelevant, because you don't scale.
How so? I'm a mentor as well as a developer. In addition to doing my part to train the next wave of devs, I also code my ass off. What part of that doesn't scale?
> You missed the point completely.
No. That's what you did though. And are increasingly insulting about it as well.
> You're part of the problem the article addresses, don't you realize?
Who's talking about the article? I was talking about the bogus "point" in the post I responded to.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#476Earlier quoted context omitted.
Then you will need two senior devs. This is because rockstar devs rarely want to mentor junior devs nor attend meetings. Most inventors are not professors.
Then they aren't a rockstar. And frankly, I've spent my career cleaning up the obfuscated, badly documented, untested code of "rockstar" devs. The idea of a "rockstar" you seem to be referring to has, in my experience, been a dev who can go into a corner and pump out high volumes of code with little supervision or collaboration. That's great, except no one else can make sense of the code they pump out, so when it com…
That's why I've always told people that I'm a "studio musician" developer. Not a rock star, but a competent professional the studio calls when they need to make a record.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#477Earlier quoted context omitted.
I didn't work in the 90s, but I'm with you here. I joined the industry out of interest. I didn't know a thing about pay when I started programming. As demand for developers increases and the industry becomes "mainstream", it's inevitable that we'll attract more folks who are purely in it for the high-paying job and "secure lifestyle". The job of a school teacher is to teach, but your job at a startup is to empower th…
The attitude that I need to devote myself to the company and forego any outside interests until the company is profitable is really unhealthy. The company I am leaving now wanted me to do that for 5 years. Imagine doing nothing but being at work for 5 years. Or imagine not dating anyone for 5 years because you're spending all your time at the office. The product is finished now, so I'm leaving, and frankly the only r…
In today's environment devotion to a company is most likely a losers game unless you have lots of equity. When they offered pensions and more job security this may have made sense.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#478There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…
> accountants leave school fully capable of employment
Well, fully capable of entry-level employment. Anyone who graduates from a reputable school with a Comp. Sci. or InfoSys type of major is also fully capable of entry-level employment.
Accountants aren't really capable of anything but grunt work until they pass the CPA which normally is after several years of grunt work and additional learning and study.
Programmers aren't much good in a business until after several years of actually programming business systems.
It doesn't seem to hard to understand to me, in fact they seem quite similar.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#479There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…
> There were never any junior dev jobs
Going to co-op and internship fairs at local colleges, and then hiring those co-ops and interns is a great way to get junior devs. My company even classifies applicants for positions as junior / intermediate / senior as a part of deciding to interview. I realize you are being hyperbolic, but there certainly are paths for junior developers, even though they may be lacking. At least at many places in my city.
> Then companies will learn that they can't skimp on middle management for software developers. Some companies will need to give software a legit seat at the table and hire upper management.
You mean, like CTO? This is what the CTO is supposed to be, right? And you see in startups, usually it's two major players, the "business / sales guy" and the programmer: i.e. the CEO and the CTO. Maybe in finance or other industries I'm not as familiar with, it's totally different. But most tech places that employ programmers I know of have at least a CTO that is a prior programmer, if not a VP of software engineering.
> If you are a software developer nearing the middle or end of your career, you're pulling the ladder up behind you if you don't seriously consider moving into management. It's too important a job to ignore to go chase your dreams.
Are you taking the piss mate? I understand your sentiment but this overbearing mother guilt-trip isn't going to change anybody's mind.
Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?
#480Earlier quoted context omitted.
In my current job, for a tech company with less than 12 people, at least 5 are interns. Two of them were recent hires (January) and before they were onboarded, i had a meeting with my boss and the other senior developer regarding the new interns and my boss stated he didn’t want me and other senior dev spending too much time mentoring the interns and that if they couldn’t manage by themselves, he would just let them…
Cup of tea or coffee?
Sure why not, i’ll drop you an e-mail