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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#451

Post by corpMaverick »

g051051 wrote: post #318
virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

> good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! Pfft. I'm about as "senior" as it gets and I'm generally the fastest developer in any team I'm on. I've never met a junior dev that could hold a candle to me, and most senior devs I know are the same...we're coding monsters.

Sr Dev with 26 years of experience. I get my edge not by coding fast. I maximize the amount of work that we don't have to do.

- Better (usually simpler) designs.

- Breaking the problem and choosing the order in which things are implemented.

- Setting up usefull feedback loops.

- etc, etc.

It is a lot about judgment.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#452

Post by g051051 »

virgilp wrote: post #391
g051051 wrote: post #352

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I do. But I'm still faster than them in head to head coding throughput (code produced, error counts, etc). I've got decades of experience in developing software. No way someone fresh out of college is going to equal, let alone out-code me. That's not to say they're not good, but the assertion: > can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! is pure BS.

I am flabbergasted that you're senior and measure your productivity in "code produced". What is that, LOC? Can type faster than a recent graduate? Good junior devs will be more skilled in some areas than you are. Maybe it's stuff you're not interested in; or just stuff they're really interested in. The only way a good junior dev doesn't "out-code" you, ever - is if you're only skilled in a very narrow niche (bonus po…

> I am flabbergasted that you're senior and measure your productivity in "code produced". What is that, LOC? Can type faster than a recent graduate?

Who uses LOC? I'm talking about completed, tested, accepted features, as defined by our project teams.

> Good junior devs will be more skilled in some areas than you are.

Well, yeah...of course. I'm not comparing myself to someone who works in an entirely different field. A junior front-end dev will be better than me at front-end stuff. I'm talking about a junior in my area, who I'd be in a team with or would mentor.

> The measure of seniority is in my mind about knowing what to NOT build, in the first place.

I agree with that statement.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#453

Post by purerandomness »

g051051 wrote: post #395
purerandomness wrote: post #374

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wasn't questioning your seniority. I pointed out how you decided to pick out a totally irrelevant, rhetorical sentence out of all points that OP made, and then decided to refute that, by claiming how much experience you have, and setting up yourself center stage, instead of adding value to the actual discussion topic at hand, which is the coaching gap.

I directly disputed the central thesis that OP (the person I was responding to, not the article) was putting forth, that senior developers shouldn't be coding: > You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! > "Mentoring" is basically the job you hire a senior dev to do What other "points" did OP make?

Your reading comprehension suffers under your fragile ego. Nobody said 'senior developers shouldn't be coding'.

The topic is about a lack of mentoring for junior devs. You being a certified 100x rockstar developer is totally fine but irrelevant, because you don't scale.

What would scale is if you were to start coaching junior devs, because if you don't, all the juniors will keep reinventing 'left-pad' in this week's ES201x iteration, while your retirement keeps getting closer.

Instead of adding to the discussion on how to solve the coaching gap, you decided to defend your coding efficiency and how you deliver features faster than a Junior Dev. You missed the point completely. You're part of the problem the article addresses, don't you realize?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#454

Post by EnderMB »

opportune wrote: post #247
derrekl wrote: post #122

The problem is squashed salaries. I’ll have junior devs or people straight out of code school asking for 75-80% the salary of a solid senior dev. If I have to make a bet on who will be easier to manage and get productive 4 seniors vs 5 juniors for the same total expenditure I’ll choose the seniors every time. Even at 2 to 1 I’m taking seniors. Maybe around 3 or 4 to 1 juniors might look better. But that means junior…

I've noticed this too. There are only a few rational explanations 1. Senior devs aren't paid enough for the value they bring to the company (or conversely, junior devs are paid too much for that value) 2. Investing in junior devs gives a good enough ROI that it's worth overpaying them for a few years. That is, after e.g. three years, enough junior devs have stuck around that they've accumulated enough org-specific kn…

I think the gig economy has helped #1 considerably.

In the UK, at least, a lot of developers reach a point where their pay is limited to what a company is willing to pay them for a full-time role. When you get to this point, you have a choice: stick to the full-time market, or go into contracting. From a money and freedom perspective, it's almost a no-brainer. A competent senior developer might make £45-50k, whereas a contractor will earn considerably more if they find consistent work. If they're not lucky enough to find back-to-back contracts they get a lot of extra free time to build their skills even further, or to diversify their offering.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#455

Post by g051051 »

corpMaverick wrote: post #451
g051051 wrote: post #318

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! Pfft. I'm about as "senior" as it gets and I'm generally the fastest developer in any team I'm on. I've never met a junior dev that could hold a candle to me, and most senior devs I know are the same...we're coding monsters.

Sr Dev with 26 years of experience. I get my edge not by coding fast. I maximize the amount of work that we don't have to do. - Better (usually simpler) designs. - Breaking the problem and choosing the order in which things are implemented. - Setting up usefull feedback loops. - etc, etc. It is a lot about judgment.

A deep understanding of your tool set is a huge advantage.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#456

Post by Raphmedia »

ritchiea wrote: post #206
pbourke wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I feel like the current trend of agile development process common in startups now somewhat works against senior devs' interests to mentor junior devs. There simply isn't time allocated for this. If you're a senior dev, you should be gaming the system a bit to create the time needed to fulfill your role. Never let the keeners fill your time up to 100%, unless it's truly neccessary. There's always going to be some in…

If the system has to be gamed to achieve the best results for your team then the system is flawed.

The system sets the board rules. You play the game. No system will ever play for you.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#457

Post by Retric »

virgilp wrote: post #389
Retric wrote: post #355

Earlier quoted context omitted.

People get better with practice. So, yes senior developers tend to be significantly faster coders. It's not that they do everything faster, but by getting better at the hard parts they finish complex tasks vastly more quickly. PS: Most people have never worked closely with someone with 25+ years of experience, but the difference is staggering.

Well, I am someone with 25 years of experience, does that count as "worked closely with"? Good junior devs are... well, by definition, good. They're just younger, and less experienced - but every bit as smart as you are, and pretty skilled in the art of coding. If anything, they have more time than I do and are a lot more eager to "prove themselves". I don't view the value I add as "can code features faster"...

Good junior devs can also have 15+ years of non professional experience from starting as a kid. It's a wide enough bucket that talking about just the top end is very misleading, however the median jr dev is relatively slow and bug prone.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#458

Post by dkarl »

vinceguidry wrote: post #379
hacker_9 wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Depends on the business of course. Try getting interviewed by competent developers, they'll quickly find the holes.

I used to believe this, now I'm skeptical. Even if they find holes in the developer's competence, interviewing is not a task, it's a business process orchestrated and controlled by middle management. Say the competent developer finds holes in the interviewee's knowledge and skills, his findings become a line item in the report passed up to said middle management. The middle manager, hopefully not in HR, has to weigh…

This is a symptom of managers not understanding the jobs of the people they're managing. I don't know if that kind of management works under any circumstances, but it definitely can't work if people who don't understand programming (and I specifically mean programming, no matter how well they understand the rest of a developer's job) are managing junior developers.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#459

Post by yetanotheruser »

padobson wrote: post #375
vinceguidry wrote: post #364

There were never any junior dev jobs. You have always had to lie, cheat, and steal your way into the field. I have a buddy who legit cheated his way to the top Magento certification and now cycles through $150k+ jobs where they keep him on long enough to realize he doesn't have any coding skills then they fire him. Reason is software is always an ancillary concern to the business. You see this in other fields, like s…

I love that you pointed out the need for political strength within organizations. I agree, and I think it directly conflicts with this line from the post: Yeah, I’m gonna bring gender into it, because I’m a woman and when women take on roles like this they often get pigeonholed into “den mother” stereotypes. That means less prestige and less prestige usually means less pay. Having the admiration and respect of the ne…

Depends if the leaders even care what 3 junior devs think.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#460

Post by jacquesm »

dep_b wrote: post #445
jacquesm wrote: post #363

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a silly generalization. I've got a pretty good overview of software development in Western Europe and NL isn't a special place for better or worse compared to the surrounding countries. If you want to get paid a lot more and you have the right skills the City or Silicon Valley are good options (assuming you are allowed to move there).

Perhaps a bit over generalized but I do feel that there’s an unusual large gap in salary between suits and devs even when comparing to countries like Germany. It doesn’t need to be a huge tech hub at all. Luckily English resembles Dutch so most Dutch speak it well enough to survive a job abroad.

The city-to-city variations in Germany are far larger than the city-to-city variations in NL because of the German history and the presence of Poland. So when you are comparing countries you need to go a bit deeper than that.

I know very well paid developers in NL and very poorly paid ones, it is mostly a matter of knowing what you are worth and refusing to charge less than that. You might find 'your spot' taken by a skilled immigrant but that's a relatively small chance.

I'd hate to have to find a developer job in Spain or Portugal judging by the number of people from there that have moved to either NL or DE. Anything East of the German-Polish border is going to pay a lot worse unless you are willing to move to Finland where there are pockets of start-ups with reasonable compensation.

Dutch developers moving abroad to increase their salary is not a trend as far as I can see.

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