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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#421

Post by mciancia »

derrekl wrote: post #122

The problem is squashed salaries. I’ll have junior devs or people straight out of code school asking for 75-80% the salary of a solid senior dev. If I have to make a bet on who will be easier to manage and get productive 4 seniors vs 5 juniors for the same total expenditure I’ll choose the seniors every time. Even at 2 to 1 I’m taking seniors. Maybe around 3 or 4 to 1 juniors might look better. But that means junior…

Well, 50k might be a lot or really low depending on the area and CoL there.

And don't forget that a lot of interns make twice that...

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#422

Post by jmvoodoo »

binarycheese wrote: post #403
jmvoodoo wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "standard" team typically has two jr engineers, and two Sr engineers. When we hire Sr engineers we hire people that like to mentor others and see it as part of being Sr. Jr engineers know that in order to become Sr one of the skills they need to master is mentoring. This is 100% a management issue, and it starts at the hiring filter. Hiring Jrs btw is its own skill as you are filtering for potential not skill or k…

Then you will need two senior devs. This is because rockstar devs rarely want to mentor junior devs nor attend meetings. Most inventors are not professors.

First off I hate the phrase "Rockstar dev" because it gives the impression that someone can be successful without the support of the team, which is wrong.

Second, I hear this extremely often: Rockstar devs don't like to mentor, Rockstar devs don't like to write documentation, Rockstar devs don't like to write tests.

At what point do you need to reevaluate your definition of a rockstar dev?

The hiring filter is a powerful thing. It allows you to find very special people if you know how to look. It's also a feedback loop. Getting momentum with a program like this is the hardest part. Once it's going it practically self sustains. The biggest part of your role becomes quickly firing any mistakes.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#423

Post by [deleted] »

binarycheese wrote: post #403
jmvoodoo wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "standard" team typically has two jr engineers, and two Sr engineers. When we hire Sr engineers we hire people that like to mentor others and see it as part of being Sr. Jr engineers know that in order to become Sr one of the skills they need to master is mentoring. This is 100% a management issue, and it starts at the hiring filter. Hiring Jrs btw is its own skill as you are filtering for potential not skill or k…

Then you will need two senior devs. This is because rockstar devs rarely want to mentor junior devs nor attend meetings. Most inventors are not professors.

[deleted]

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#424

Post by coolguy2282 »

mwdalrymple wrote: post #290
rjsw wrote: post #268

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You sound as if you are already able to teach yourself, just read more open-source code to find out what is good or bad style.

I would consider soliciting a formal mentor here on hackernews. Hacking on a open source project together would be a way to recieve that help in a remote fashion. Sounds like there should be a thread to match mentors and mentees here on hackernews. Maybe a bunch of mentors post some open source projects that they want mentees for?

I would jump on something like that, I'm a senior university student currently with no work experience on my resume. I have been unable to do internships during summers because I usually need to spend that time helping out my sick father every year, and it terrifies me that I'm going to have to jump into the marketplace with no internships or anything really on my resume.

Every time I try to 'contribute to open source projects' online I get overwelmed by the size and complexity of most codebases, I have tried numerous times, and have never been able to fix a bug.

This type of thread is something I'm sure I and others would take serious advantage of.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#425

Post by padobson »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #376
padobson wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I love that you pointed out the need for political strength within organizations. I agree, and I think it directly conflicts with this line from the post: Yeah, I’m gonna bring gender into it, because I’m a woman and when women take on roles like this they often get pigeonholed into “den mother” stereotypes. That means less prestige and less prestige usually means less pay. Having the admiration and respect of the ne…

Don't see anything said that's incompatible with the 'Den mother' stigma. If its about pay and promotion, not about being friendly with Engineers, then you want to avoid the role that won't be respected. You can't imagine all the ways management can dismiss women's actions - "she's a great connector in that department. Let's leave her there, that's working great." or "sure she's got all the guys eating out of her han…

If its about pay and promotion

Pay and promotion is about making yourself valuable. If you mentor engineers and gain a reputation for doing so, you're effectively shaping the culture of the organization, not to mention gives you a ton of leverage with the productive employees you taught to be productive.

It makes you far less disposable. When mixed with even amateur negotiating skills, that leads to promotion and better pay.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#426

Post by jmvoodoo »

vinceguidry wrote: post #400
jmvoodoo wrote: post #381

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My "standard" team typically has two jr engineers, and two Sr engineers. When we hire Sr engineers we hire people that like to mentor others and see it as part of being Sr. Jr engineers know that in order to become Sr one of the skills they need to master is mentoring. This is 100% a management issue, and it starts at the hiring filter. Hiring Jrs btw is its own skill as you are filtering for potential not skill or k…

I'll see your management issue and raise you a leadership one. At my last job, a $40MM cosmetics and skincare company, the CEO had a great deal of trouble figuring out how to get his e-commerce department properly managed. I was willing to step up, and for a brief time they allowed me to bring in candidates for a position that would report to me, but I didn't have enough political cover over me so that fizzled out. I…

This is absolutely true. Ive been lucky that the last 17 years of my career have been spent reporting to the CEO and have had a large amount of leeway in my position. That's not always the case and a bad leadership team can't create a good culture.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#427

Post by bbarn »

opportune wrote: post #247
derrekl wrote: post #122

The problem is squashed salaries. I’ll have junior devs or people straight out of code school asking for 75-80% the salary of a solid senior dev. If I have to make a bet on who will be easier to manage and get productive 4 seniors vs 5 juniors for the same total expenditure I’ll choose the seniors every time. Even at 2 to 1 I’m taking seniors. Maybe around 3 or 4 to 1 juniors might look better. But that means junior…

I've noticed this too. There are only a few rational explanations 1. Senior devs aren't paid enough for the value they bring to the company (or conversely, junior devs are paid too much for that value) 2. Investing in junior devs gives a good enough ROI that it's worth overpaying them for a few years. That is, after e.g. three years, enough junior devs have stuck around that they've accumulated enough org-specific kn…

I think #2 is just dead wrong. The easiest way to change your status - whether that's income or losing your junior title - is to move jobs. I think the real reason we see so few junior devs now is they just aren't good for the companies paying them. Why invest in a junior developer when almost certainly they will (and should!) leave your company to get more money and different experiences.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#428

Post by muninn_ »

jacquesm wrote: post #363
dep_b wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Netherlands is a special place in Software Hell. Where the non-suits are only a cost. "Devs can't be cheap enough! We can't find decent devs!"

That's a silly generalization. I've got a pretty good overview of software development in Western Europe and NL isn't a special place for better or worse compared to the surrounding countries. If you want to get paid a lot more and you have the right skills the City or Silicon Valley are good options (assuming you are allowed to move there).

Well, if you're an exploited contractor from India or China or a member of a family that already has residence you should have no problem. If you're a well-educated person from the Netherlands you'll never get in - unless you try moving to Canada and use their point system.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#429

Post by alistairSH »

Is this a small company vs large company thing?

We hire interns and recent graduates most years. I've had 2 interns/summer for as long as I've been in a leadership role. The majority of my team was hired straight out of college. My employer is a well-established software company (35+ years, 400+ employees, R&D offices in 4+ countries).

We also have a robust on-boarding program for college graduates. So, we can deliver all that early training once with willing SMEs instead of many times. Yes, it costs money (travel/housing for remote new hires, travel/expenses for remote L&D staff, catering, extra-curricular events, etc). That doesn't completely alleviate the mentoring load, but it seems to work well. Plus, the new hires make friends quickly and rely on each other more than they might otherwise.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#430

Post by soneca »

I am a junior developer on my first job as a developer at a startup with around 50 developers.

The company, luckily, has a very opposite approach to hiring jr devs than what is described in the article. There are usually one or two jr developers per squad of 4 or 5 people (which is actually a maximum, the company is aiming only at more mid-level or senior devs right now).

There is a very collaborative environment, a lot of help from all senior developers - not only the ones in my squad.

What I think is missing in the economics there is that I (and all other jr developers) do provide measurable value to the company after 2 or 3 months. I am able to create simple, but necessary and demanded by the business, features by myself, just with senior developers reviewing my PRs.

This idea that junior developers are a drag to senior developers is fake in my (limited) experience. I make the senior developer in my team more productive most of the time, and after around 8 months in the job, we are actually hiring another junior developer because I think I am ready to take some of the responsibility of mentoring him/her on a basic level.

I am pretty sure that I am a net positive to the company on a $ invested per value delivered ratio.

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