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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#271

Post by thepratt »

zemanel wrote: post #248
virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

In my current job, for a tech company with less than 12 people, at least 5 are interns. Two of them were recent hires (January) and before they were onboarded, i had a meeting with my boss and the other senior developer regarding the new interns and my boss stated he didn’t want me and other senior dev spending too much time mentoring the interns and that if they couldn’t manage by themselves, he would just let them…

Is there no room to fight management or make them understand?

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#272

Post by collyw »

loorinm wrote: post #213
Declanomous wrote: post #139

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's because fixing 1 and 2 are really expensive. On top of that, the further removed someone is from the work being done, the more they want people to look "busy". I got moved from a desk in in a dead end office with to a desk in a bullpen so that I could be "closer to the people who I work with." My performance fell off a cliff. People would stop by all the time to check up on things, there was always a conversat…

How is it expensive to solve the bullpen issue? Tell people to STFU or build a wall in the office, or at least put up some dividers. It’s not rocket science. Most CEOs and VPs are idiots, handing money around to each other in a circle jerk of old white guys club, backslapping each other for hiring each other and keeping the hegemony going. These idiots do not know what they are doing, they have just been conditioned…

I am surprised no companies offer noise cancelling headphones for staff. They are relatively cheap (compared to restructuring an office building) and could increase productivity a lot for some people.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#273

Post by jkukul »

raducu wrote: post #202
TheDauthi wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This... has made me realize how lucky I am. I do get asked to mentor our junior people, and I also enjoy the look on people's faces when they get that sudden realization of how something works. And I like explaining how things work anyway; I find it's the second-best way to realize what pieces of the system -I- don't know. And - being perfectly honest about myself - I also enjoy the (brief and usually undeserved) "wo…

I've worked at 5 companies during my 13 years of programming and while I live in Eastern Europe and not North America, I can still confidently say luck has nothing to do with it. Companies who work on long-term projects usually hire junior devs, companies that work on short therm projects don't, it's as easy as that. Companies that hire more junior devs tend to pay less and usually struggle to keep the rising star de…

I totally agree, this is just the way things are. Yet, I think it's still possible that businesses in general have become more short-term oriented nowadays. An abundance of short-lived startups, companies being managed for short-term objectives, etc.

Therefore, it's possible, that there are relatively more short-term projects than long-term projects these days (comparing to, let's say a decade ago).

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#274

Post by emodendroket »

_s wrote: post #126
emodendroket wrote: post #41

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, but I think it would be foolish to do otherwise. I was new once too, and even after I'd done my first job people were hesitant to call me back with no relevant degree and my only experience being in a small shop mostly working alone (for significantly less than the market rate, I should add). Now I managed to make my way past that gauntlet and I'm enjoying the fruits of my labors as a "senior" developer. I don'…

Absolutely! Though would you still consider yourself a "senior" developer, if a "mid-level" or "junior" starts working with you and happens to exceed your skillset in very noticeable ways? I know I've hired some exceedingly excellent programmers that made me feel rather amateurish! I guess what I'm trying to say titles are fairly arbitrary - and yes, the system is in need of a little shake up! Enjoy the perks the tit…

The titles are more or less arbitrary anyway. I'm not that hung up on it.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#276

Post by gnclmorais »

zemanel wrote: post #248
virgilp wrote: post #223

> we don’t hire junior developers because we can’t afford to have our senior developers mentor them. That feels too dumb to be real (which is exactly why it's probably a real thing). You don't hire senior devs to code - good junior devs can code not only "just as fast", but probably faster too! You hire senior devs to guide you WHAT and HOW to code. And they can do that so much more effectively if they don't have to…

In my current job, for a tech company with less than 12 people, at least 5 are interns. Two of them were recent hires (January) and before they were onboarded, i had a meeting with my boss and the other senior developer regarding the new interns and my boss stated he didn’t want me and other senior dev spending too much time mentoring the interns and that if they couldn’t manage by themselves, he would just let them…

> I’m looking for another job :-)

Good, I was just going to suggest that!

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#277

Post by emodendroket »

Double_a_92 wrote: post #194
emodendroket wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Searching for a job is way easier if you have a professional network to draw on and beginners, pretty much by definition, really don't.

> a professional network How? Let's say I work at some company...Then I know exactly my coworkers and customers. How does that help me build a network? I could maybe ring up some buddys from uni that are working somewhere else... But contact to them also gets lost over time.

I found the job I have now because I was foundering and a college friend put me in touch with a recruiter who was a good match. Now that I've worked in industry for a while, I have colleagues who've moved to other companies I can ask them about. Sometimes old bosses will get in touch and ask me if I'm interested in joining their companies. The more positive experiences people have had working with you the more doors are open.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#278

Post by scarface74 »

I feel really badly for junior developers today. I was both fortunately and unfortunately never a "Jr. Developer" as a professional.

By the time I got my first programming job right out of college in 1996, I had already been a hobby programmer for 10 years, had been very deep into assembly and C, and had been reading books like "Code Complete". My first job was writing a data entry system from scratch in C.

It was also unfortunate because I spent the first 12 years of my career working at 2 companies where I was either the only developer or one of only two or three and the other two had been at the same company from the beginning of their careers. So yeah, I was a good "developer" (I had the chance to look at some of my old code and it would have passed one of my modern code reviews), but I didn't start learning modern, proper "software engineering" until 2008 when I started job hopping and choosing companies where the goal was more to gain experience than make money. Although the money wasn't bad either.

Even back in 1993 while in college, I got my first programming side gig because another college saw a HyperCard stack I posted on AOL.

If I wanted to break the cycle of no experience no job today, I would do a side project and post on github and link my resume to it. I have experience and a good resume but I'm thinking about posting side projects to GitHub just to get experience in technologies I don't get a chance to use at work.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#279

Post by emodendroket »

tonyedgecombe wrote: post #246
Double_a_92 wrote: post #194

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a professional network How? Let's say I work at some company...Then I know exactly my coworkers and customers. How does that help me build a network? I could maybe ring up some buddys from uni that are working somewhere else... But contact to them also gets lost over time.

>But contact to them also gets lost over time That's probably a mistake on your part, especially when tools like LinkedIn make it so easy.

Yeah. In particular, it's often your looser acquaintances who have something for you.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#280

Post by M_Bakhtiari »

Cd00d wrote: post #155
preordained wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you on almost everything...I love tinkering, hacking, reading, pondering, side "experiments" (I think "project" is a bit grandiose for what I hack on from time to time)...but holy hell do I hate conferences and things like that. I just don't get it...most every conference I've seen could have been summed up in a quick article or powerpoint...and I don't get any personal thrills from the "live experience". That…

I'm from another field, but I love love love conferences. It's like an annual reunion of my peers, days of detailed talks and better questions, and vast amounts of network chat that I find interesting and valuable. I see a lot of anti-conference comments here on HN, and I don't get it. Every week I've spent at a conference has been highly illuminating and motivating, and recharged my fascination. This is all followed…

>It's like an annual reunion of my peers, days of detailed talks and better questions, and vast amounts of network chat that I find interesting and valuable.

I think that's the key. Conferences are only fun if you can actually have a meaningful connection with the people, if they are genuine peers with similar interests instead of just a bunch of people there for their own self-aggrandizement, sneaking around the corners trying to catch someone saying "dongle". Or the ones mainly frequented by socially inept nerds, like Fosdem.

So conferences can often be pretty hit-and-miss.

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