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Who Killed the Junior Developer?

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Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#41

Post by emodendroket »

zbentley wrote: post #37
emodendroket wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Hey, man, if people want to pay me well and give me lofty titles I am not going to dissuade them. As developers I don't think that's our problem to worry about. Seeking out the most benefit for yourself is just common sense in the job market we live in and I'm not losing a lot of sleep over the prospect that I'm not as "expert" in my job as a lawyer is.

While I don't think you're a bad person for doing those things, can you see how this (repeated by enough people) produces the new-entrant-hostile hiring environment we currently have?

Sure, but I think it would be foolish to do otherwise. I was new once too, and even after I'd done my first job people were hesitant to call me back with no relevant degree and my only experience being in a small shop mostly working alone (for significantly less than the market rate, I should add). Now I managed to make my way past that gauntlet and I'm enjoying the fruits of my labors as a "senior" developer. I don't think I'm doing anything other than responding to the incentives created by the system.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#42

Post by maxxxxx »

emodendroket wrote: post #36
maxxxxx wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's something I have noticed too. In the 90s most people I worked with were genuinely interested in the work and often came from very eclectic backgrounds. Almost nobody had a CS degree. Now it seems a lot of people go into programming because it pays well and looks like a good career but they don't really care for tech. I definitely found the industry more fun in the 90s but that may just be the fact it's becomin…

I don't think someone necessarily has to live and breathe code to be good at their job. That kind of focus is hard to maintain forever. When I was new I was constantly reading programming books and now, like, I'm still interested, but other things are going on in my life that also need my attention, you know?

I don't live and breathe programming either. But when I am at work I care about the technology and like to learn new stuff whereas a lot of people I see just do what they are told to do and take their paycheck home. Nothing wrong with that but I find it more fun to work with people who care.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#43

Post by emodendroket »

cyberpanther wrote: post #38
emodendroket wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, I think a lot of what you are paying for with the boot camp is the promise that their network and industry contacts will help you. Otherwise it's pretty much impossible (at least in my view) to justify those tuition rates.

If you look at long term value, the tuition is really nothing. At a good bootcamp even without any industry contacts you will probably have a job in 6 months. Sure your salary will be lower than a CS grad, but you'll also have way less debt. But yes look at placement rates at any bootcamp before joining. If people are getting jobs then it's well worth it.

Right, I suppose what I mean to say is, if you were "just" learning how to program, it probably wouldn't be worth it, because you could learn just as well on your own for practically nothing (order some books on Abebooks and watch some videos on Coursera and you've got a decent curriculum). But if you do that you haven't made any contacts and don't have anyone to vouch for your skills.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#44

Post by twblalock »

nathanaldensr wrote: post #6

I love mentoring. I always have. I used to help out other kids in my high school programming classes. Despite holding several high-level software development positions, what is the total number of times I've been asked by management to mentor more junior folks? Zero. I did it because I love sharing knowledge and I like seeing looks of understanding appear on my colleagues' faces when they "get something" for the firs…

> The short-termism that's infested our culture--it seems like all Western culture--is truly sickening. It feels like "Well, I got mine, screw the next generation." This goes way beyond just junior developers.

It's a bit of a leap to conclude that on the basis that you weren't asked by management to mentor junior devs. In fact, it's possible management assumed you would do mentoring and didn't need to be told.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#45

Post by emodendroket »

maxxxxx wrote: post #42
emodendroket wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think someone necessarily has to live and breathe code to be good at their job. That kind of focus is hard to maintain forever. When I was new I was constantly reading programming books and now, like, I'm still interested, but other things are going on in my life that also need my attention, you know?

I don't live and breathe programming either. But when I am at work I care about the technology and like to learn new stuff whereas a lot of people I see just do what they are told to do and take their paycheck home. Nothing wrong with that but I find it more fun to work with people who care.

OK, fair enough. I agree with you; I also like to challenge myself with new things. But I like to go home at the end of the day too, you know? Sometimes I think programmer culture gets too self-flagellating.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#46

Post by kenhwang »

jarjoura wrote: post #7

Most junior level positions are being filled with the massive influx of new grads from really strong intern programs at most companies now. If you're in college now, make sure you get an internship at a company in your field. If it's too late for that, then you'll have to do a little extra work and probably work on a couple side projects and post them on GitHub. That first job will always be the hardest to get, so do…

Definitely agree with this. It's not that the junior developer position doesn't exist anymore, it's that there's an overwhelming supply of strong candidates with the CS pedigree, multiple internships, side projects, and well balanced technical/soft skills.

For juniors to be cost effective/neutral, you can only really have 1-2 per mid/senior engineer. Most companies don't have that many mid/senior engineers to begin with, much less ones that are willing to take on a junior to mentor for a year or two.

It takes a better part of a decade to transition a junior into an independent, mentoring capable senior. The current software boom only started in 2009ish. That means there's only a few cohorts of seniors created in this cycle, and I would guess not very many of them given the job market in 09. Give it time, years of experience don't just happen overnight.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#48

Post by crpatino »

throwaway9116 wrote: post #28
klobo wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

'Why invest in educating someone if they are going to quit in one year or so?' 'What happens if you don't invest in them, and they decide to stay?' - Quote from a management guru, can't remember his/her name

But what if the company's plan is to exit or bust in a few years? There's not much of a future for them either way..

You know you are living interesting times when companies bust on purpose !!!

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#49

Post by ryan-allen »

danjoc wrote: post #3

>the rate is anywhere from $190-$300 an hour Well there's your problem. Valley pricing. You can get Sr Devs much cheaper than that. Then you can afford to train up some juniors. I don't think that's the real problem though. Companies want you to take the risk/expense of learning a technology that might be obsolete next year. They'll pay you back in salary if you lucked up and mastered the right stack. If you didn't,…

> The other problem is most Sr.s don't want a Jr. coming in and making negative contributions. Sr.s are frequently the ones doing the interviews. They see most Jr.s as "What's a computer?" level talent that will start fires in production systems.

I think this is pertinent, when you're already too busy doing things and keeping stuff running, who has the time to handle a run-of-the-mill junior?

The most successful launches I've seen is where a junior comes in and can already contribute _at some level_, this is always due to the extra curricular work they've done outside of their education (if indeed they had any higher level education at all).

The spectrum of jobs out there allows a creative (or lucky, in my case) junior to springboard. Think of 'started out modifying and configuring wordpress themes, ended up writing some custom code and extensions, ended up learning laravel and databases' type of progression. You won't be working in bleeding edge AI or at Google on their self driving cars, but you'll be solving problems for people, and that's a career.

Re: Who Killed the Junior Developer?

#50

Post by maxxxxx »

emodendroket wrote: post #45
maxxxxx wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't live and breathe programming either. But when I am at work I care about the technology and like to learn new stuff whereas a lot of people I see just do what they are told to do and take their paycheck home. Nothing wrong with that but I find it more fun to work with people who care.

OK, fair enough. I agree with you; I also like to challenge myself with new things. But I like to go home at the end of the day too, you know? Sometimes I think programmer culture gets too self-flagellating.

I hate the whole side-project-after-work thing. Unless you have a real business idea to pursue I think 40 hours per week of focused work is plenty. There are a lot of other cool things in life.
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