Maintaining code quality when nobody cares • Hacker News Board

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#181

Post by ndh2 » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:49 PM UTC

WorkLifeBalance wrote: post #101

aalleavitch wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely the situation I am in right now, and I desperately need all the guidance I can get. We’re talking thousands of lines of React components that rely regularly on manipulating global js variables, mixed with MVC 5 written in Razor delivering variables in script tags, mixed with outdated jQuery, that’s all just concat’d together with gulp and that hasn’t seen a refactor in years of changing hands with…

Personally I thrive in this kind of environment, it's a kind of comfortable chaos. MVC5 is positively modern compared to many of the products I've worked with which have included (within the last 5 years) VB6 winforms but mostly aspx webforms. Understand that previous developers might not know what a DOM is have likely written ad-hoc jquery snippets, included 3 different versions of jquery-ui until they happened acro…

Unfortunately 5. doesn't work if your company doesn't do any code reviews.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#182

Post by Clubber » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:50 PM UTC

jimmy1 wrote: post #22

jacquesm wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The number of years a piece of software has been alive is not always a good indicator of how old it is. It can be 2 years old and in outright legacy territory. Some people are working hard to replace one legacy project with another. Software does not age well when it isn't constructed properly.

In my opinion, when speaking of "legacy software", we should place a stronger emphasis on the actual meaning of the world legacy rather than the usual pejorative. Meaning that: this software has created a "legacy", in some form or fashion. Whether that legacy was it was used in the past to build the business, it paved the way for some standard or better practice, or it simply outlived it's time. Downvotes are usually…

I've always known it as software that exists and is actively being rewritten, so a mainframe system would be the legacy system while writing a new Windows application to replace it.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#183

Post by Clubber » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:52 PM UTC

somethingsimple wrote: post #99

dionidium wrote: post #92

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Part of this process, especially for new team members or junior devs, is to signal that, yes, we take typos (and formatting, and proper grammar, and the style guide, etc) seriously. I could fix this myself, but I shouldn't need to. We all make mistakes, but too many "small" mistakes is an indication of sloppiness. Is this actually a mistake? Or were you just being lazy?

Agreed. In my team I am known for being extremely meticulous about this, and some people don’t like it. If I see one or two typos or spacing issues, I understand that’s an honest mistake. But if I see typos, spacing issues, bad indentation, bad naming, etc. all over your diff, I can’t help but think you’re sloppy. If you don’t care about the little things like properly formatted code, I have a hard time believing you…

A code formatter will save you tons and tons of man hours.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#184

Post by space_fountain » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

reaperducer wrote: post #141

ManlyBread wrote: post #115

I've tried this approach in the past and and it has made me very bitter. Eventually I realized that the company I worked for enforced no accountability for bad code, so I would often open the solution later and found a pile of ugly hacks or other mess. Code reviews? Refactoring? "We don't have time and no one is going to pay for it". Eventually you come to a conclusion that if no one cares then why should you? If any…

It can be very frustrating, but ultimately it's a reflection on you. Whether you're a coder, or a librarian, or a janitor, take pride in your work. Do the best job you can. If everyone else's code looks like crap, that's on them. When new people come on, they'll see your work compared to the slackers, and start emulating you, not them. Like anything in life: Do the right thing, even when you're surrounded by villains…

I definitely do the best I can, but as someone sort of in this position I worry that I'm becoming a worse programmer for it.

I'm junior enough that I often don't know what to do. I've never gotten really good at full unit testing for example. I really do think in situations like this my best bet is trying to find somewhere where they follow better practices.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#185

Post by scruple » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:53 PM UTC

s73v3r_ wrote: post #156

reaperducer wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be very frustrating, but ultimately it's a reflection on you. Whether you're a coder, or a librarian, or a janitor, take pride in your work. Do the best job you can. If everyone else's code looks like crap, that's on them. When new people come on, they'll see your work compared to the slackers, and start emulating you, not them. Like anything in life: Do the right thing, even when you're surrounded by villains…

Better advice: Go to where they actually care about what you're doing, if you can. Otherwise, put effort into what you're doing, but don't go overboard, and absolutely never work overtime.

Those places are basically unicorns, as far as I can tell. I have my own anecdotes, of course, and they oscillate between "we cared about code quality" and "we didn't have time." My experiences and the conversations I've had with others lead me to the conclusion that: almost all of us have deadlines that we didn't really help set, that we're always struggling to meet those deadlines, and that there is a stupid amount of money on the line that drives these decisions. And, so it goes, "get it done and ship it yesterday" is the commonality that I see.

That said, despite the frustration, I do try to hold myself accountable for writing clear and concise code as much as I possibly can and off-setting the times when I have to commit some clever hack with long-form narrative style comments.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#186

Post by skookumchuck » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

ManlyBread wrote: post #115

I've tried this approach in the past and and it has made me very bitter. Eventually I realized that the company I worked for enforced no accountability for bad code, so I would often open the solution later and found a pile of ugly hacks or other mess. Code reviews? Refactoring? "We don't have time and no one is going to pay for it". Eventually you come to a conclusion that if no one cares then why should you? If any…

I've seen a lot of well-intentioned code refactoring that made the code objectively worse. Refactoring well takes a pretty seasoned programmer to do it.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#187

Post by Clubber » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:54 PM UTC

tboyd47 wrote: post #68

xstartup wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What do you mean by throw away? The submitter can always make the requested changes. And if the pull requests are not even relevant then it's entirely a different issue.

Meaning the submitter just spent one week writing code that will have to be written over again. If they had requested feedback informally before the PR, they would have written the code correctly the first time.

There is a dev design/plan time that could be utilized to solve that.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#188

Post by ndh2 » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:56 PM UTC

shadowmint wrote: post #78

pgsandstrom wrote: post #13

> It turned out that the project I was invited to started as early as 2014. Do you think it means that it’s big and complicated? Then you’re right. And it’s also really old. Is it just me, or is less that four years not "really old"?

Funny how no one has any meaningful advice, just some snark about those dang young developers. Get off my lawn! That line wasn't the important part of this post. This one was: > You should also have a global self-development plan. If you can’t put it into practice under the scope of the project, you should spend your free time on it. Damn straight. If you work somewhere with tight deadlines and rubbish code quality,…

This is very good advice.

I would change the last point to: Don't work overtime unless you, personally, get something out of it. That something might be not getting fired. But if it doesn't get you anything... Don't do it.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#189

Post by laythea » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 7:58 PM UTC

nightski wrote: post #166

reaperducer wrote: post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It can be very frustrating, but ultimately it's a reflection on you. Whether you're a coder, or a librarian, or a janitor, take pride in your work. Do the best job you can. If everyone else's code looks like crap, that's on them. When new people come on, they'll see your work compared to the slackers, and start emulating you, not them. Like anything in life: Do the right thing, even when you're surrounded by villains…

A contrary opinion based on experience - instead of focusing so much on how bad the code is take the time to get to know your coworkers better. Talk with your manager and the business leaders about the business. Learn more about the business you are in and how your code makes an impact to that business. At the end of the day the goal is not to produce clean code. It's to make your company successful. I'm not saying c…

This is a very good, professional response.

Re: Maintaining code quality when nobody cares

#190

Post by laythea » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 8:03 PM UTC

mike986 wrote: post #155

Retric wrote: post #147

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don't stress about code quality. Quality code is it's own reward. Yes, clean code is more fun to write and work with. But, just think of it as a different kind of optimization problem. If the investment is not going to pay off in the future, then it's not worth doing in the first place. PS: This is not giving up, it's about getting even better by becoming ever more flexible.

this is very selfish, unless you're the only developer in your shop. whoever works with you will have to bear the burden that you left behind because you think its a low ROI for YOU

I don't think the parent was talking about writing bad code. I think he/she was saying not to stress about writing good code too much. Those are different things.