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Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

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Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#131

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no doubt that if he had not solved the nitrogen-fixing problem, someone else would have, and it is certainly possible that someone else would have pushed the use of poison gas into practice. It is also generally simplistic to claim that any one thing greatly prolonged the war. 'Great men' and 'pivotal event' historiography is a simplistic way of looking at the past, but nevertheless, it is a simple historica…

I think people take special people for granted. You can't say, for certain, that anyone would have figured out the nitrogen fixing problem _in a period of time when it would have been effective to have done so_. The entire world could have been blown up before someone came along to figure it out. The world has yet to churn out another mind quite like Einstein's, that flips convention on its head, or opens up humankin…

I disagree. I think there are many minds that would be capable of what these people did (not everyone, certainly not myself, but thousands of people alive today).

It is a case of having the right person in the right place at the right time, Einstein would have not had his theories had he been around 20 years earlier, or if he had not had the opportunities that he did. And if he had not been around then I think it would have been others. It is about the environment, Calculus was developed by two people simultaneously.

As to why we haven't had someone who has done this, well who's to say that we haven't and they are just overlooked? Or that greater capital expenditure it has to be groups of people (finding DNA, cloning, Graphene, etc). Or that there has simply not been the right environment.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#132
post #101

Earlier quoted context omitted.

USA has constantly pressured DPRK over the course of decades, mostly for domestic political purposes. At many points we could have chosen less confrontation, but usually we chose more. Recently we offered Qaddafi the same deal we have continually offered the Kims, and then after he accepted it we "changed our minds" and shoved a bayonet up his ass. Even now we continue the pressure (somewhat erratically, because Trum…

At some point you have to stand up to despots in the name of human rights.

This has never been a goal of the Department of State - only the excuse.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#133
post #116
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dan Carlin's Countdown to Armageddon also gets into these aspects in detail. The basic argument is that a number of factors, including technology at a macro level and logistics at a more micro level set various policies and machinery in motion that was difficult to stand down once it got moving.

Automatisms quite unlike like the various doomsday machines dreamt up during the cold war, just running on diplomatic and logistic commitments rather than on transistors and logic programming. I think that much of the institutionalized sabre rattling was seen by some contemporary experts as a guarantee for peace, in a proto-mutually-assured-destruction kind of way.

> I think that much of the institutionalized sabre rattling was seen by some contemporary experts as a guarantee for peace, in a proto-mutually-assured-destruction kind of way

Contemporary experts also claimed that "the economic cost of war was so great that no one could possibly hope to gain by starting a war the consequences of which would be so disastrous."

This is one reason I find the modern argument for MAD to be insane. Conflict escalates, despite it being a negative-sum game.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#134
post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't agree. The Mongol Empire as an example is still remembered to this day. Nobody cares what exactly they did, but it's common sense that it was pretty bad. British colonial era? Same thing, but half the world still remembers what atrocities they have commited, and it was longer ago as WW I. It's the bad things generations of people remember, the good things not so much. You know, hate sows war, war sows hate. T…

> The Mongol Empire as an example is still remembered to this day. Nobody cares what exactly they did, but it's common sense that it was pretty bad. Is it really? I think most people only remember them as successful conquerors. > British colonial era? Same thing, but half the world still remembers what atrocities they have commited, and it was longer ago as WW I. Depends! The British Empire lasted until the 1960s --…

> Besides, who remembers the British concentration camps?

Everyone, because it's the answer to the question "who invented the concentration camp".

Unfortunately it's the incorrect answer, because nobody remembers the American, Spanish, French and Paraguayan (the possibly correct answer) concentration camps that came earlier.

It's quite strange/interesting that atrocities in the "wars before WWI" got turned into atrocities in the "British colonial era" though; maybe people remember what they want to remember.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#135
post #75

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, good thing is we're all getting an object lesson right now. Watch North Korea and the U.S. interact. That is how war happens. Leaders who for various reasons taunt and provoke each other, implementing what to either populace seems a reasonable policy. (NK would like to be able to defend against the US, so they get nukes. The US would like to not be nuked, so they agitate strongly against them). Alas, these poli…

USA has constantly pressured DPRK over the course of decades, mostly for domestic political purposes. At many points we could have chosen less confrontation, but usually we chose more. Recently we offered Qaddafi the same deal we have continually offered the Kims, and then after he accepted it we "changed our minds" and shoved a bayonet up his ass. Even now we continue the pressure (somewhat erratically, because Trum…

Communist ideology as embraced by nations typically involves spreading that ideology as far and wide as possible (including in the non-purified forms of communism). Your opening sounds like the USA had no reason to pressure the DPRK. I can't speak to specific incidents you may have in mind, but communism would have spread globally, bringing with it suffering, had it not been opposed and pressured.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're using an anonymous account, and I for one promise to upvote whatever "nastier, stranger" truth you post. Lay it on us, man!

Well, without going to deep down the rabbit hole, I think I'll put it like this: At best, wars are primarily a tool of the bankers and the international elite in a path towards control of all countries economic and physical resources. They finance and play both sides, and no matter the victor, they win. This is essentially the John Perkins position. Even John Perkins claims there is no "grand conspiracy" though... an…

Before all those came the Major General Smedley Butler:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket

https://ia802605.us.archive.org/29/items/WarIsARacket/WarIsA...

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#137

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, without going to deep down the rabbit hole, I think I'll put it like this: At best, wars are primarily a tool of the bankers and the international elite in a path towards control of all countries economic and physical resources. They finance and play both sides, and no matter the victor, they win. This is essentially the John Perkins position. Even John Perkins claims there is no "grand conspiracy" though... an…

Before all those came the Major General Smedley Butler: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_Is_a_Racket https://ia802605.us.archive.org/29/items/WarIsARacket/WarIsA...

As a Marine he was always my favorite Marine. (Even over Chesty) He straight up confronted an attempted facist coup! (The business plot for anyone interested)

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#138

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is no doubt that if he had not solved the nitrogen-fixing problem, someone else would have, and it is certainly possible that someone else would have pushed the use of poison gas into practice. It is also generally simplistic to claim that any one thing greatly prolonged the war. 'Great men' and 'pivotal event' historiography is a simplistic way of looking at the past, but nevertheless, it is a simple historica…

I think people take special people for granted. You can't say, for certain, that anyone would have figured out the nitrogen fixing problem _in a period of time when it would have been effective to have done so_. The entire world could have been blown up before someone came along to figure it out. The world has yet to churn out another mind quite like Einstein's, that flips convention on its head, or opens up humankin…

Where do you draw the line? Is John von Neumann in the list? What about Feynman? Do you include Go or chess players that changed the game? What about Castro who successfully kept independence from the superpower next door? Linus Torval has made amazing contributions to modern computing by BDFL. What about Shannon, the father of information theory, or the men behind RSA?

Draw a line between these and choosing what field of study or what kind of change to the world counts to make a "special person" changes the number of special people dramatically.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#139
post #17

"Billions of people would not exist without him. And yet without him, World War I would have ended years earlier" The article is very interesting, but there is this Hollywood simplistic approach where one man is responsible for all things. The text even mention the Allies developing a poison gas, why not other German chemic? No one other person would be able to discover how to produce amonia? I don't subscribe to thi…

He did it though. Assuming that anyone else could have done it or would have done is a bit presumptuous.

Look at the history of sound recording[0] for example. You can see that the technology that made it possible existed for years and years before anyone attempted such a feat. Now imagine if the first one who decided to record audio never done it would you think that we will be where we are now because "For sure someone would have done it" argument? I highly doubt that.

What bugs me though is what are the things that could exist right now but are not because someone still didn't think about them.

Re: Fritz Haber: A Monster Who Fed the World

#140
post #37
post #2

What an insane and fascinating read. Two things occured to me: I don’t really understand how and why war happens. Like, it starts out as two parties both wanting the same resource, and then somebody says “over my dead body” or something and then a million other people decide to also join in this fight? I do not get it. The other thing is : The “inherent harm of technology”. Every single advancement will 100% hurt som…

> how war happens Orwell captured one way total war can happen: a powerful small group of people gains control of a propaganda apparatus, and uses control of messaging to divide a country, or turn a country against a demonized minority group or external rival. That happened with Mao, with Hitler, with Stalin, with Mussolini. Today’s challenge is ensuring that the propaganda arms created by Murdoch and Mercer and Koch…

Who's the most demonized group of people in America today?
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