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New ethics courses in computer science

nytimes.com

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Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#51

Post by taurath »

seabird wrote: post #39
taurath wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people come up with all sorts of justifications for why what they’re doing isn’t wrong. Concerted effort to knock down those justifications and socially shame those that cling to them does work - consider all the people who don’t want to go work for an ad company or a defense contractor, or those who leave with one of the reasons being to escape the industry that they know is wrong.

Consider all the people who do want to go work for an ad company or a defense contractor. Ethical outlooks are relative, but your outlook bother people who are "unbound," even if their outlook bothers you. Go ahead and knock down those justifications all you like, but some people can't be swayed. You could go ahead and jail them for their unsavory take and they would see themselves as a victim of a society that denie…

I certainly wasn't saying that all or even 20% of people will be swayed. Just that it can make a difference.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#52

Post by lumberjack »

subroutine wrote: post #12

Whenever I hear about these ethics courses I'm mainly curios about what non-obvious substantive content being taught (because there is apparently enough to fill a semester-long course). Anyone who has taken one of these courses care to share something they learned that, before the course, had never considered?

The philosophical aspect of ethics is not void of substance. There are many ways to think about the ethics of a situation. You learn different frameworks of ethical thought and you gain new perspectives. Some people who are very ideological will write this off as useless bullshit, but only because they are very invested in only one perspective and not open minded enough to consider the merits of other ethical frameworks.

To give you a programming analogy, it is as if you always programmed imperatively, using C, because you learned that organically as you grew up, and then you take this class and you learn about functional programming and object oriented programming and you learn how you can think of the same problem from a completely different perspective.

Except with the crucial difference, that the end result will not necessarily be the same and in fact there is not always a right answer. But when there is not always one right answer it is better to know many possible answers and why they are possible answers, than only one such answer.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#53

Post by QML »

Honestly, there should just be a required ethics component to all college curriculums; I am not sure why it needs to be technologically focused.

I would actually say the tech industry is the least of our worries with concerns to ethics; the last two years, tech has been heavily criticized and as a result it seems that people in the field are willing to change.

Can't say the same about any other industry.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#54

Post by taurath »

peoplewindow wrote: post #36
taurath wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think people come up with all sorts of justifications for why what they’re doing isn’t wrong. Concerted effort to knock down those justifications and socially shame those that cling to them does work - consider all the people who don’t want to go work for an ad company or a defense contractor, or those who leave with one of the reasons being to escape the industry that they know is wrong.

I think the opposite - people come up with all sorts of justifications for why what other people are doing is wrong . This lets them feel self satisfied, virtuous and perhaps a little smug effectively for free, and if their position is perhaps a little thinly thought out, well, no big deal, it's not like anyone is going to listen anyway. I've watched many attempts to tar entire industries as evil over the years. Inva…

Your examples are rather extreme and not what I'm advocating at all - there's a big difference between the Navy and Blackwater.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#55

Post by whatshisface »

KirinDave wrote: post #22
purple-again wrote: post #4

Always a losers game. You implement it with ethics in mind, I do not. I win and you fall into obscurity. The law is all that matters. If I can not lose what I take, there is no reason for me not to take it (so long as I'm still chasing the 'fuck you money', morals are great after you have it). I understand it, lots of people have dreamed big dreams of how great the world would be if everyone else was just like them t…

Flip side of this: People who say this are usually folks trying to justify the fact that they're resorting to underhanded, abusive tactics to compete with talented, successful people who are not. It is the battle cry of the mediocre, the hallmark of scammers, the ultimate admission of the untalented and unworthy. I know a lot of folks in fintech and blockchain, and we've all skated the outer edge of what's defined by…

"Lots of accounts leaving after public relations disaster," is not really something that you need data science to detect. A chart, maybe.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#56

Post by jclos »

nostrademons wrote: post #46
nemild wrote: post #11

If useful, I wrote my own thoughts on ethics in software, after reflecting on certain experiences over the years: > A serial tech entrepreneur in Silicon Valley once asked me to design a “social stockade” for his financial services customers. It would lock people out of their social media accounts and tweet out/FB share to their friends when they hadn’t paid a loan. He pitched it to prospective employees as meaningfu…

Interestingly, many microfinance programs that are widely heralded as having lifted many people out of poverty (eg. Grameen Bank, CARE) rely heavily on peer pressure to boost their repayment rates. They lend out to groups within a village, and then if any one member of the group fails to repay the loan, the group can't access more capital. This creates a strong incentive for other members of the group to exert social…

> They lend out to groups within a village, and then if any one member of the group fails to repay the loan, the group can't access more capital.

That reminds me of those loan systems where you need to send naked pictures of yourself as a collateral, and that seemed to become popular in China (at least according to Western media).

https://qz.com/707770/chinas-college-students-are-using-nude...

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#57

Post by KirinDave »

cheeze wrote: post #41
KirinDave wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flip side of this: People who say this are usually folks trying to justify the fact that they're resorting to underhanded, abusive tactics to compete with talented, successful people who are not. It is the battle cry of the mediocre, the hallmark of scammers, the ultimate admission of the untalented and unworthy. I know a lot of folks in fintech and blockchain, and we've all skated the outer edge of what's defined by…

> blockchain sigh

Plenty of people are doing legitimate things in this space. One need only look. Legitimate NON-currency (token or integrity) applications abound.

In a very real sense, github was an early blockchain startup. Do you type "sigh" on an internet forum when people talk about github?

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#58

Post by criddell »

rafiki6 wrote: post #13

Technologists aren't doctors. Doctors are a necessity because people have an incessant need to stay alive. Technologists aren't a fundamental necessity to society. We are business people. The only rules/ethics that govern us are business rules/ethics. Some might argue, "but technology is required for us to survive". It's not. We've survived plenty without it. Technology is required for us to thrive.

Technologists should study ethics and abide by a code not because technology is required, but because it's pervasive and often hidden.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#59

Post by lostcolony »

That's one thing that, in hindsight, I quite liked about undergrad CS at Georgia Tech. CS4001, Computer Ethics, was required.

It didn't try to push a specific worldview, but rather asked people to consider the ramifications of technical (and business) decisions, to discuss them, and to recognize the stakeholders beyond just the company paying. At the time I went through it, DRM was a big topic, and big data concerns were beginning to be (especially as noted that the problem was more than just what you stored, it was what -everyone- stored, and the ability to correlate it; you had to consider what else was out there). I imagine the latter now dwarfs the former.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#60

Post by TallGuyShort »

whatshisface wrote: post #55
KirinDave wrote: post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Flip side of this: People who say this are usually folks trying to justify the fact that they're resorting to underhanded, abusive tactics to compete with talented, successful people who are not. It is the battle cry of the mediocre, the hallmark of scammers, the ultimate admission of the untalented and unworthy. I know a lot of folks in fintech and blockchain, and we've all skated the outer edge of what's defined by…

"Lots of accounts leaving after public relations disaster," is not really something that you need data science to detect. A chart, maybe.

Which is about what a lot of people claiming to be data scientists can do.
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