New ethics courses in computer science • Hacker News Board

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#41

Post by cheeze » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:15 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #22

purple-again wrote: post #4

Always a losers game. You implement it with ethics in mind, I do not. I win and you fall into obscurity. The law is all that matters. If I can not lose what I take, there is no reason for me not to take it (so long as I'm still chasing the 'fuck you money', morals are great after you have it). I understand it, lots of people have dreamed big dreams of how great the world would be if everyone else was just like them t…

Flip side of this: People who say this are usually folks trying to justify the fact that they're resorting to underhanded, abusive tactics to compete with talented, successful people who are not. It is the battle cry of the mediocre, the hallmark of scammers, the ultimate admission of the untalented and unworthy. I know a lot of folks in fintech and blockchain, and we've all skated the outer edge of what's defined by…

> blockchain

sigh

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#42

Post by ebenrock » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:17 PM UTC

spodek wrote: post #18

I like their goals, but the traditional academic implementation described in the article and in the syllabus the article linked to won't achieve them. If you want people to learn behavior, you can't lecture them into it, nor will talking about case studies or writing papers help. Look at the behavior those classes teach: analysis, reading, writing, debating other people's behavior. Active, experiential, project-based…

This is very much like the gender imbalance in tech - starting to address it in college only provides a band-aid. This is a much deeper issue that starts soon after birth.

As a CMU grad student they had the Reasonable Person Principle to help guide your actions and interactions. The principle states nothing about ethics, but generally that you should be open to others' concerns, practice self-reflection, and even accept that their viewpoints differ from yours. In spite of this principle being in place I definitely dealt with at least one very unreasonable person during my graduate studies there.

I've been in several ethical conundrums in my career. In a couple cases my choice was the "lesser" unethical option among many. It can be difficult to make those choices when your career or employment is on the line. I've left jobs because I believed (or knew) the work I was doing wasn't quite on the level.

Trying to recreate these scenarios, realistically, in a class room is pretty hard. Having discussions about ethics is nice, but probably not very effective. Could you build a course, or assignment, where the only way to get an A is to cheat or act unethically? Would that even be ethical for the university to offer?

In my cynicism, this looks like a "cover-our-asses" maneuver by universities, at least in part.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#43

Post by wu-ikkyu » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

"I am convinced that if we are to get on to the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin [applause], we must rapidly begin the shift from a thing-oriented society to a person-oriented society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme materialism, and militarism are incapable of being conquered."

-Beyond Vietnam (1967), Dr. Martin Luther King Jr.

http://www.americanrhetoric.com/speeches/mlkatimetobreaksile...

It seems futile to silo this as a problem of "tech", when really it's a problem of society at large: that profit motives are largely considered more important than people.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#44

Post by oh_sigh » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:18 PM UTC

subroutine wrote: post #12

Whenever I hear about these ethics courses I'm mainly curios about what non-obvious substantive content being taught (because there is apparently enough to fill a semester-long course). Anyone who has taken one of these courses care to share something they learned that, before the course, had never considered?

I'm sure there is non-obvious substantive content, but it is more akin to navel gazing than real-world applicable knowledge.

https://aeon.co/essays/how-often-do-ethics-professors-call-t...

> Ethicists do not behave better. But neither, overall, do they seem to behave worse

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#45

Post by da02 » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:19 PM UTC

ProAm wrote: post #3

Such a good opening line, "The medical profession has an ethic: First, do no harm. Silicon Valley has an ethos: Build it first and ask for forgiveness later."

Actually, doctors constantly prescribe dangerous drugs all the time: https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/wicked-deeds/201404/pre...

But, they get away with it since most people sue the drug companies instead of the doctors.

During primetime in the US, you can see the ads for drugs. Wait a few years and you can see lawyers advertising class-action lawsuits for those same drugs during daytime TV.

Then, when you bring it up, someone mentions, "doctors don't harm people. They have a motto to do no harm." Actually, most doctors ignore it and do what other doctors do. Just look at statin drugs: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/jacob-teitelbaum-md/statins-c...

Let's see doctors prescribe magnesium citrate + fish oil instead of statin drugs. "Oh, but fish oil contains mercury!" No doctor ever says, "Be careful of drugs. One gives you side-effects and you will end up on a treadmill of drugs to cover the side-effects of the others."

Doctors go on strike, deaths decline (in Israel): https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1127364/

And in the UK: "When doctors strike, fewer patients die": https://www.bostonglobe.com/ideas/2016/02/09/hoskins/QhjVuBH...

It's all hard to accept, but Silicon Valley is no different. Except people scrutinize Silicon Valley and Wall Street more than they do their own doctors. Go ask your doctor about statin drugs and see the clever rationalizations they make. No different than the people here who say, "I can't program without NULL!"(https://www.destroyallsoftware.com/talks/ideology)

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#46

Post by nostrademons » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:22 PM UTC

nemild wrote: post #11

If useful, I wrote my own thoughts on ethics in software, after reflecting on certain experiences over the years: > A serial tech entrepreneur in Silicon Valley once asked me to design a “social stockade” for his financial services customers. It would lock people out of their social media accounts and tweet out/FB share to their friends when they hadn’t paid a loan. He pitched it to prospective employees as meaningfu…

Interestingly, many microfinance programs that are widely heralded as having lifted many people out of poverty (eg. Grameen Bank, CARE) rely heavily on peer pressure to boost their repayment rates. They lend out to groups within a village, and then if any one member of the group fails to repay the loan, the group can't access more capital. This creates a strong incentive for other members of the group to exert social pressure to make sure everyone pays back their loan.

...which goes to illustrate the complexity of most ethical issues that arise out of social systems. Oftentimes, something that seems cruel to an individual within the system is actually in the best interests of the participants of the system as a whole, and sometimes can even be in the long-term best interest of the person themselves. And then whether you view such features as cruel & unethical or necessary & beneficial depends on your perspective & role within the system.

(This could also be taken as a synecdoche for capitalism itself, which on a micro level is about as cruel as you can get - individuals compete in a race to the bottom to do things more cheaply, and nobody will help you unless it serves their interests too - but on a macro level is the most effective system we know of for satisfying consumer wants.)

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#47

Post by pdkl95 » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

deckarep wrote: post #40

Also watch Black Mirror on Netflix. Beyond the satire, dark humor and guilty entertainment this show offers quite a lot to consider on this exact subject matter.

I very highly recommend this[1] outstanding analysis of Black Mirror. It's short, it explores how Black Mirror fits in the history of sci-fi, and is one of the most concise explanations of the root cause of this kind of "tech problem" (hint: it isn't actually caused by technology; it's how people use it. Technology is just an amplifier).

[1] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hr9_DcO6G3A

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#48

Post by dragonwriter » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

wu-ikkyu wrote: post #43

"I am convinced that if we are to get on to the right side of the world revolution, we as a nation must undergo a radical revolution of values. We must rapidly begin [applause], we must rapidly begin the shift from a thing-oriented society to a person-oriented society. When machines and computers, profit motives and property rights, are considered more important than people, the giant triplets of racism, extreme mate…

> It seems futile to silo this as a problem of "tech", when really it's a problem of society at large

Of course, but while it is broadly socially acceptable to criticize a particular industry or technology, criticizing capitalism is less acceptable; indeed, redirecting frustration at particular (and changing periodically) industries and away from the system itself is a key defense mechanism.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#49

Post by ChuckMcM » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:23 PM UTC

I grew tired of arguments supporting fleecing the users that were basically "We aren't making them do this, they choose to do it." I have heard them put forward at nearly every company I've worked at, at various levels and through various departments. At Google it was always "We don't take an editorial stand, this might be just what some of our customers want." That has been the most interesting aspect of their recent moves to either sanction advertisers or block them. So somewhere in there it has gone from "If people don't want to see ads there are lots of adblockers out there to choose from." to "We need to take a stand against abusive advertisers." And that is a huge difference in approach.

Do engineers need a Hippocratic oath? I'm not sure they do, but if we forced some liability on companies for what the software they sell does, that would change a lot of things fairly quickly.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#50

Post by [deleted] » Tue, Feb 13, 2018, 6:24 PM UTC

KirinDave wrote: post #22

purple-again wrote: post #4

Always a losers game. You implement it with ethics in mind, I do not. I win and you fall into obscurity. The law is all that matters. If I can not lose what I take, there is no reason for me not to take it (so long as I'm still chasing the 'fuck you money', morals are great after you have it). I understand it, lots of people have dreamed big dreams of how great the world would be if everyone else was just like them t…

Flip side of this: People who say this are usually folks trying to justify the fact that they're resorting to underhanded, abusive tactics to compete with talented, successful people who are not. It is the battle cry of the mediocre, the hallmark of scammers, the ultimate admission of the untalented and unworthy. I know a lot of folks in fintech and blockchain, and we've all skated the outer edge of what's defined by…

[deleted]