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New ethics courses in computer science

nytimes.com

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Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#21

Post by jackhack »

miketery wrote: post #10
purple-again wrote: post #4

Always a losers game. You implement it with ethics in mind, I do not. I win and you fall into obscurity. The law is all that matters. If I can not lose what I take, there is no reason for me not to take it (so long as I'm still chasing the 'fuck you money', morals are great after you have it). I understand it, lots of people have dreamed big dreams of how great the world would be if everyone else was just like them t…

> The law is all that matters Agreed. Lets change it.

Unless you are sitting on a mountain of money, forget it. You must buy laws of any substance.

Laws represent power structures. Power structures are buttressed with money flows. If you threaten either, it will not end well.

Politicans know this. They profit from it, it is the product being sold. (Ever wonder how so many congressmen end their terms as millionaires?)

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#22

Post by KirinDave »

purple-again wrote: post #4

Always a losers game. You implement it with ethics in mind, I do not. I win and you fall into obscurity. The law is all that matters. If I can not lose what I take, there is no reason for me not to take it (so long as I'm still chasing the 'fuck you money', morals are great after you have it). I understand it, lots of people have dreamed big dreams of how great the world would be if everyone else was just like them t…

Flip side of this: People who say this are usually folks trying to justify the fact that they're resorting to underhanded, abusive tactics to compete with talented, successful people who are not. It is the battle cry of the mediocre, the hallmark of scammers, the ultimate admission of the untalented and unworthy.

I know a lot of folks in fintech and blockchain, and we've all skated the outer edge of what's defined by law. The folks who give a damn about setting sustainable policy and not exploiting customers? Those are the folks who are still around. Even big US national banks, notorious for their immunity to law and enforcement, are starting to feel the pressure. Rumor is, Customers left Wells Fargo in droves after the last kerfuffle and new account opening went down substantially at Citi after their money laundering fine. The hidden cost of bad optics is immense. And as data science makes the formerly invisible behaviors of the world visible, society's going to get a whole lot more capable of identifying "bad behavior" and punishing it.

To say "The law is all that matters", in the context of these industries, is beyond naive. It's not just wrong, but it's leaving money and opportunity on the table. It's bad business AND bad optics.

> (so long as I'm still chasing the 'fuck you money', morals are great after you have it).

If this ethos is so effective, why are you still "chasing?" Or is this the rhetorical we? Or the royal we? I can never tell here.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#23

Post by seabird »

All of these noble ideas of ethics and social responsibility are great for everyone that feels bound by them themselves. Many of the rest can't be bothered. People who have to be taught that the missile they're building is going to kill people and that they should feel bad about it probably already knows that the missile they're building is going to kill people and they don't feel bad about it. You see this issue come to a head in computer technology because much of it doesn't have absurd cost/precision requirements like weapons, drugs/pharmaceuticals, etc. have.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#24

Post by grasshopperpurp »

purple-again wrote: post #17
rafiki6 wrote: post #13

Technologists aren't doctors. Doctors are a necessity because people have an incessant need to stay alive. Technologists aren't a fundamental necessity to society. We are business people. The only rules/ethics that govern us are business rules/ethics. Some might argue, "but technology is required for us to survive". It's not. We've survived plenty without it. Technology is required for us to thrive.

Well said. Those of us who came from a business background remember our business ethics in university well. The running joke, from start to finish, is a thank you for compiling together the things we should walk carefully and carry a big stick while doing.

>The running joke, from start to finish, is a thank you for compiling together the things we should walk carefully and carry a big stick while doing.

These are the types we should weed out of society.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#26

Post by taurath »

seabird wrote: post #23

All of these noble ideas of ethics and social responsibility are great for everyone that feels bound by them themselves. Many of the rest can't be bothered. People who have to be taught that the missile they're building is going to kill people and that they should feel bad about it probably already knows that the missile they're building is going to kill people and they don't feel bad about it. You see this issue com…

I think people come up with all sorts of justifications for why what they’re doing isn’t wrong. Concerted effort to knock down those justifications and socially shame those that cling to them does work - consider all the people who don’t want to go work for an ad company or a defense contractor, or those who leave with one of the reasons being to escape the industry that they know is wrong.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#27

Post by ProAm »

Alex3917 wrote: post #7
ProAm wrote: post #3

Such a good opening line, "The medical profession has an ethic: First, do no harm. Silicon Valley has an ethos: Build it first and ask for forgiveness later."

Yeah but both of those are just marketing postures that don’t really have anything to do with the underlying realities of their respective industries.

I think it speaks well to start ups, VC culture and silicon valley as a whole actually. It is a bit posture-y but feel its accurate.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#28

Post by evanlivingston »

purple-again wrote: post #4

Always a losers game. You implement it with ethics in mind, I do not. I win and you fall into obscurity. The law is all that matters. If I can not lose what I take, there is no reason for me not to take it (so long as I'm still chasing the 'fuck you money', morals are great after you have it). I understand it, lots of people have dreamed big dreams of how great the world would be if everyone else was just like them t…

I don't want people like you in the world.

Re: New ethics courses in computer science

#30

Post by Pica_soO »

seabird wrote: post #23

All of these noble ideas of ethics and social responsibility are great for everyone that feels bound by them themselves. Many of the rest can't be bothered. People who have to be taught that the missile they're building is going to kill people and that they should feel bad about it probably already knows that the missile they're building is going to kill people and they don't feel bad about it. You see this issue com…

Usually its just another job creation scheme for the philosophy department. If corruption or illegal activity is found after that- the only answer can be - employ more philosophers. Only the church of liberal arts can grant you salvation, if you vow to employ more liberal arts majors.

I love especially the codes of conduct on web-pages- usually there is only one click away a map of all locations the company is active. If its active in any Arab country and in Israel, it had to bribe somebody just to get off that anti-Semitic blacklist you get for doing business in Israel.

So proof of corruption and code of conduct out in plain view next to another. Got to love this shiny new world.

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