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How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

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Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#61

Post by majormajor »

objclxt wrote: post #34
askafriend wrote: post #7

This comment from a former employee on the iOS team provides some more context around the software quality issues. I think this is the more interesting point around which we should have this discussion. https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7x0eif/how_apple_pla...

I have a slightly different perspective (I worked on iOS 7 - 11). One of the things about Apple that's different to many of the other tech conglomerates is that engineering teams are given huge freedom to work the way they want (for better and for worse). Because engineering is so fragmented you should always take what one person says about the process with a pinch of salt. So that means there are hundreds of source…

When I've seen "always follow priority order," it's always been somewhere between "[wink wink] that's a good idea, figure out how to link it to the top-priority stuff" and "all priorities are negotiable" anyway. Was your experience similar, or just more of a team truly without external priority ordering?

Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#62

Post by objclxt »

chuckdries wrote: post #53
objclxt wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have a slightly different perspective (I worked on iOS 7 - 11). One of the things about Apple that's different to many of the other tech conglomerates is that engineering teams are given huge freedom to work the way they want (for better and for worse). Because engineering is so fragmented you should always take what one person says about the process with a pinch of salt. So that means there are hundreds of source…

Do you think some level of standardization of process would help apple as a whole? Would it help eliminate the relatively poor experience of reddit-OP?

I think it's both a blessing and a curse. On the one hand it makes it very easy for teams to find an approach that works for them, and does away with a lot of bureaucracy.

On the other, it promotes a lot of inefficiencies (I knew of at least 8 separate instances of Phabricator being used by different teams), and makes it very difficult to centralize core tooling and operations. It also makes it very hard for engineers to have internal mobility (you typically would have to do a full interview loop as an internal transfer, which is in stark contrast Google / FB's approach).

When I left there was talk of centralizing more tooling to attempt to alleviate some of these issues, but I don't know if any progress has been made since then.

Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#63

Post by throwaway7187 »

askafriend wrote: post #7

This comment from a former employee on the iOS team provides some more context around the software quality issues. I think this is the more interesting point around which we should have this discussion. https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7x0eif/how_apple_pla...

Perfect time for the ol' throwaway...

I'm a former iOS EPM (not speaking for Apple, obviously, since I don't work there anymore), and although the Reddit commenter got the atmosphere of constant crisis right, he/she is misplacing the blame and misunderstanding the power dynamic. EPMs at Apple essentially have zero power over engineers' workload. They take the list of stuff the engineering managers said they want to get done this year and say "You guys are crazy, you'll never be able to do this without 3x the hours/manpower." Then they proceed to drive the team as hard as necessary to make sure that they actually deliver what they said they were going to deliver. That's it. The idea that there is this cabal of mighty EPMs twirling their mustaches and loading developers down with work is pretty far from reality.

It's true that you shouldn't be working on anything not in Radar (the bug tracker) but this is true anywhere you'll work. Project managers however do not sign developers up for all those radars--on the contrary--we're usually trying desperately to help you get rid of scope and get the task list down to what's actually do-able!

One of the great things that IMHO sets Apple apart is how engineering-driven they are. I've never worked anywhere else where engineers had so much freedom to decide what they're working on. The fact that they always decide to work on 3x what they can actually achieve is kind of on them. But that drive to try to do so much is part of what keeps innovation strong at Apple.

Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#64

Post by objclxt »

bpyne wrote: post #35
askafriend wrote: post #7

This comment from a former employee on the iOS team provides some more context around the software quality issues. I think this is the more interesting point around which we should have this discussion. https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7x0eif/how_apple_pla...

Based on this comment, it sounds like engineers are more like line workers. "EMs at Apple are powerless to push back. Every engineer's performance is tied to the number of Radars fixed and closed. Every EM's performance is tied to their team's total Radars fixed and closed, so they have an incentive to keep everyone focused on the prize."

Never saw or heard anything about my performance being tied to the number of radars I fixed or closed, and I never heard anyone else I worked with say that either. Doesn't mean it didn't happen, like every big company there are managers who are good, and managers who don't really get it.

Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#65

Post by cageface »

objclxt wrote: post #34
askafriend wrote: post #7

This comment from a former employee on the iOS team provides some more context around the software quality issues. I think this is the more interesting point around which we should have this discussion. https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7x0eif/how_apple_pla...

I have a slightly different perspective (I worked on iOS 7 - 11). One of the things about Apple that's different to many of the other tech conglomerates is that engineering teams are given huge freedom to work the way they want (for better and for worse). Because engineering is so fragmented you should always take what one person says about the process with a pinch of salt. So that means there are hundreds of source…

Based on your experience there what would you say is the cause of the recent slip in software quality in both iOS and macOS? As an outsider it looks to me like they're just pushing too hard to keep up with a yearly release schedule but that's based on no inside knowledge at all.

Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#66

Post by arvinsim »

computerex wrote: post #54
dingo_bat wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think Microsoft has a code quality problem at all. On the contrary I'm hard pressed to point at any recent Microsoft software and say it's bug ridden or low quality or badly designed. From iOS to Android to Windows, Microsoft software is excellent.

The constant nagging for updates could be considered a flaw in design. I think Microsoft has always had the reputation of producing buggy software with usability issues. I think they have gotten a lot better at all that.

> The constant nagging for updates could be considered a flaw in design.

That's not a code quality problem.

Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#67

Post by abalone »

askafriend wrote: post #7

This comment from a former employee on the iOS team provides some more context around the software quality issues. I think this is the more interesting point around which we should have this discussion. https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7x0eif/how_apple_pla...

Breaking: Engineer Thinks PM is a Bozo. Film at 11.

It's not really context. The real problem here is the premise that "Apple has software quality issues" is taken as a given, without support.

Sinofsky makes the point that Apple is operating a such a huge, unfathomable scale and depth -- and this is coming from one of Microsoft's top guys in its heyday -- that even rare bugs that affect 0.01% of users translate into a "stadium full" of people, affecting their lives deeply. So, combine that with a sensationalist, anecdote-driven news cycle and you get an optics problem. He observes that "in any absolute sense," Apple's SW+HW quality has "exceeded everyone else."[1]

[1] https://twitter.com/stevesi/status/963142502604779520 (via Gruber)

Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#68

Post by Bahamut »

askafriend wrote: post #7

This comment from a former employee on the iOS team provides some more context around the software quality issues. I think this is the more interesting point around which we should have this discussion. https://www.reddit.com/r/apple/comments/7x0eif/how_apple_pla...

That post is not particularly useful - each team/org works differently. “Working on iOS” is such a vague introduction, it doesn’t really give any indication of his/her role or a feel for how every team/org operates.

I can claim the same, and my own experience has been far from that poster’s experience. Any time I have volunteered to spend extra time to accomplish a goal, I have been told by my manager that it isn’t necessary for me to do so. We also do our own planning on our team and the management chain is there to help us be successful.

Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#69

Post by arvinsim »

heavymark wrote: post #13

This rumor has been around past few months, hoping it's true. Though while us technies in the minority would rather bug fixes than new features that don't apply for us, the general public would be very upset if iOS12 changes are all under the hood, as they would say Apple has fallen behind and people will insert common statements every years like they are finally considering switching etc. So while I hope the do fix…

I would agree that people would want flashiness in the hardware level but I highly doubt they would mind in the software level.

Most people I know are already happy with the functionality of their iOS or Android devices.

Re: How Apple Plans to Root Out Bugs, Revamp iPhone Software

#70

Post by toyg »

csomar wrote: post #55
ProfessorLayton wrote: post #12

This is sorely needed. Every iOS update has introduced bugs and UX gremlins that have been dragging Apple's software quality through the mud. Chief among them is Apple Music, since it is a huge part of Apple's service initiative. - Their latest update now wastes space to tell me it isn't playing anything! - Often times just refuses to work. No error, no graceful recover. Just silence. https://imgur.com/a/VrO1Y - Aird…

Are you sure you got the last update? Because Apple music has been a PITA for me too (especially that I use it with my car bluetooth) and I had the same issues you mentioned here. However, all the issues were fixed in the last update and so far it is pretty solid. No complaints. (iOS v11.2.5)

> all the issues were fixed in the last update

Eh, no. I have playlists I made years ago. I click on them, crash. Probably some of the items are not available in Music, as they were from my personal iTunes library, but do I care? Nope. It just ensures I will never pay for this sub-standard service.

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