German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal • Hacker News Board

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#141

Post by s73v3r_ » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

AndrewKemendo wrote: post #120

I'd argue there is no way to properly communicate to the average facebook user how their data is being collected and used in a way that is transparent but not confusing. For example, explain to someone who is illiterate in technology how the act of you "tagging" your friend in a photo is to offload image labeling work to train a deep neural network to infer your friend's face. If you radically simplify the issue in l…

I think you need to step back and ask why that sounds more "terminator/ominous" to people. And from there, maybe re-examine why you're doing it.

Just because someone thinks that it might sound bad is not a reason to not disclose it. If people think that FB image tagging training their systems to recognize people's faces is bad, that's probably a signal that shouldn't be ignored.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#142

Post by madez » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #81

toomuchtodo wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Will Facebook remove all of my personal data and attest to no longer collecting any future data from my online of offline activities?

Dunno man, did you give them your personal data? If yes, then according to the TOS it's theirs. If not, there's no problem.

According to the law, you have to give certain rights to the user, including the right to demand cease of use and deletion of the data. So, you do not own the data and are not free to use it however you wish.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#143

Post by TomMarius » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

mziel wrote: post #136

TomMarius wrote: post #87

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not true. That's the purpose of the cookie law. If you continue to use a website that gives you the notice, you've given consent. You can still use blockers also.

It's not "consent" as understood by GPDR and ePrivacy. You had no recourse not to give it, therefore it was not willing and informed.

Not true, you can leave the website. The website of course has to not track you until you don't leave.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#144

Post by MrMoenty » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #5

I think if I was creating a new social media website today I'd probably not set up any presence in the EU. The sheer quantity of fines for vaguely specified "crimes" being handed out makes it a deeply unattractive business environment and it seems to be getting worse. I remember when Facebook was new, one of its big competitive advantages was its easy and comprehensive privacy controls. I didn't see other social netw…

I find it surprising that people have gotten so used to Facebook's abuse of data that they cannot even imagine things being different. You uploading data to Facebook to share with your friends does not mean that you give consent to have it stored, analyzed, and sold for profit.

If I upload data to Dropbox, my bank, or my health insurance, I don't expect them to be sold to advertisers either. So what if there was a social network that actually respected its users and didn't exploit their data for its own ulterior motives? Seems to be an inconceivable notion to some.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#145

Post by Xylakant » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:23 PM UTC

peoplewindow wrote: post #100

lima wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The GDPR isn't actually as bad as people claim. The law is actually pretty reasonable. It is the result of years of discussion and deliberation. In fact, privacy watchdogs are complaining that it doesn't go far enough - it leaves plenty of holes. Most of the GDPR is about informed consent, having a valid reason for processing personal data and individual rights. Facebook will do just fine, they had years to prepare a…

How is the law reasonable? It's not even clear what is allowed under it and what isn't. The EU refuses to clarify anything, the only time any decision will be made is by courts, if there's an actual dispute in progress. The rules are so vague that any firm could be argued to be in violation. And the EU acts as judge, jury and executioner. It looks like a way to tax the SV tech firms without needing a treaty change. A…

“And the EU acts as judge, jury and executioner.”

That’s true only if you regard he EU as a single entity. Laws made via the EU will be turned into national law, and independent judges will judge all cases, up to the EU high court. By the same right you could call the US judge, jury and executioner on all laws and rules made and enforced by the US government (FACTA anyone?)

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#146

Post by s73v3r_ » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #103

s73v3r_ wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's a very uncharitable way of looking at things. A different way of phrasing it would be that the EU recognizes the power disparity between Facebook and any individual user, and that an individual user does not have any ability to negotiate with FB, and thus the contract of adhesion that is the ToS is not made in good faith.

You know you don't have to use Facebook, right? It's not even like it's the only social network. Facebook is not something you need.

That's not a reasonable defense, though. Not to mention, it's been shown quite a bit that FB is still gathering information on people who are not members of Facebook.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#147

Post by peoplewindow » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

SCHiM wrote: post #124

peoplewindow wrote: post #95

Earlier quoted context omitted.

1. GDPR is a good example of why to abandon the market imo. It's not even clear how it affects backup strategies, let alone more complicated questions. Most vaguely written law I've seen in a long time. I can't help but suspect it's designed to be violated, as a revenue source. But just don't set up a corporate presence in the EU and they can't do much. 2. I remember people saying that about China. The market was too…

I have a hard time seeing how you came to your conclusions about point 3. The rulings seem crystal clear and are explained in normal language. Take the google shopping case: http://europa.eu/rapid/press-release_IP-17-1784_en.htm Seems very clear what is wrong. I'm thinking that perhaps it's a good thing that future companies like FB can't take off in Europe. The need for a product like FB is clear, and if the rules p…

I disagree. I followed the shopping case closely. At no point was it obvious what Google did wrong, or why providing shopping results is a problem but not maps or videos, or how you would predict and avoid such problems in a new company and product line.

Nor are any of the other cases clear cut. Apple's case isn't even about Apple, it's more like a power struggle between the Commission and the Irish government.

We saw how Germans reacted to the rise of Facebook years ago. It wasn't through some 'grassroots' social network or open source. It was simply a local clone of Facebook, China style, right down to cloning the UI:

https://techcrunch.com/2008/07/18/facebook-sues-german-socia...

If the EU succeeds in convincing the rest of the world that it sees their firms as cash cows, all that'll happen is that people who live in member states will have to live with crappy local ripoffs - no different to China.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#148

Post by denzil_correa » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

hamandcheese wrote: post #55

lima wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Deeply unattractive business environment for companies exploiting people's personal data without their consent? Good.

If you volunteer your data to Facebook I have a hard time considering you to have been “exploited.”

You can't claim "Caveat Emptor" when you have no means to know what is happening with your information.

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#149

Post by rhizome » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:24 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #131

s73v3r_ wrote: post #117

Earlier quoted context omitted.

And if someone tags me in a photo?

Then they uploaded a picture they shouldn't have uploaded and the person who uploaded it should be sued (by you and possibly by Facebook because they broke the TOS that says you can only upload stuff that doesn't break the laws - and a photo of you that you didn't agree to be uploaded is against the laws)

a photo of you that you didn't agree to be uploaded is against the laws

I've never heard of this before, is it a part of GDPR?

Re: German court rules Facebook use of personal data illegal

#150

Post by s73v3r_ » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 9:25 PM UTC

TomMarius wrote: post #112

mrguyorama wrote: post #104

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Except when your friends take pictures of you and upload them. Facebook doesn't need you to have a device to affect you every single day

It's not FB who is in the wrong, they have no control over your friends' actions.

It very much is FB in the wrong if they are using that data for anything.