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America's misguided culture of overwork

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Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#91

Post by Nitramp »

CWuestefeld wrote: post #79
Nitramp wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Correct, but he's at least a bit wrong in both directions. I was surprised to read people in Tupelo are three times wealthier than people in Hamburg; Tupelo might have a higher GDP, but certainly not three times. Maybe he was trying to be polemic? I still agree with the sentiment of the article. European societies sacrifice a bit of growth potential and individual freedom to get better living conditions for all. I th…

European societies sacrifice a bit of growth potential and individual freedom to get better living conditions for all. Economists can tell you that this can't scale up to the whole world. Paul Graham's article explains it very well. (The following is all quotation; I'm not italicizing, in the interest of readability) If you want to reduce economic inequality instead of just improving the overall standard of living, i…

If you want to reduce economic inequality instead of just improving the overall standard of living, it's not enough just to raise up the poor. What if one of your newly minted engineers gets ambitious and goes on to become another Bill Gates? Economic inequality will be as bad as ever.

I find that assertion illogical. If I raise the income niveau of low wage workers, income inequality does go down. I don't have to keep the top down to reduce inequality, that's just nonsense.

The interesting question is where that money will come from. Increasing lower wages take away from the income of the companies they work for (those people are usually not self employed). So what we will see is a little less income for large companies and their owners, who form the very top incomes anyway. Also, note that the incomes of the top 1% do not really affect the median (and also the average, to a lesser degree) income all that much.

I don't see how that is fundamentally keeping innovation from happening. Founding the next MS might be a little less profitable, but I don't think it'd have kept Bill Gates from doing what he did if he had a billion less by now. Also, Microsoft is quite the counter example: they pay their workers comparatively high wages.

As for the practical effects: I think we can see that Europe (and in particular the more egalitarian Northern Europe) does not necessarily fit his description of a poor country only offering raw materials and cheap labour. There is also lots of innovation happening, not necessarily in IT, but in other sectors (machine engineering, medical, the whole car industry, ...).

So, I think the theoretical point is illogical, and practice shows the effects it predicts do not happen. Colour me unconvinced.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#92

Post by cpach »

patrickgzill wrote: post #69

My personal experience with Germans is that they are hard workers for several hours, then they take off and play. During the time they are working they are focused on getting work done. Americans will put in long hours, but then during the course of the day will play in the form of checking personal email, talking around the water cooler, etc. You can cross ref. this with NASA's finding that programmers who were only…

Sounds like an interesting study. I searched for it but didn't find anything. You don't happen to have a link?

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#93

Post by Nitramp »

tezza wrote: post #38
dsplittgerber wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Guess my irony didn't show. Compared to the US and Asia and even EU-growth, Germany has not performed ahead of the pack at all, growth-wise. It has trailed behind US growth for years.

As a London based person, the 'suddeness' of the interest in Deutsche strategy is palpable. Last years 'sick man' is now the healthiest man on the block:: IF the Keynsian stimulation favoured by America does not work. Further, there are mounting concerns (valid or not) that China may not be the saviour some hoped. If that transpires, the situation will be bleak indeed for the indebted US and good for the 'austere' Ge…

These press articles (and maybe even the underlying Economic studies) are just nonsense. E.g., Ireland used to be the magic model for all of Europe with huge GDP growth, now they are completely broke. Same for the Baltic states to a lesser degree.

One year, it's all fairy dust and unicorns, the next year doom and gloom. Seen from some distance, this sounds a lot like people who have no clue at all making long term predictions based only on what they see right now.

Which again confirms my suspicion that Economy as a science at least on that level doesn't hold much water. The predictions might as well be random.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#94

Post by davidw »

DanielBMarkham wrote: post #87
furyg3 wrote: post #82

Earlier quoted context omitted.

While this story certainly isn't great for discussion (for the points you mentioned) I disagree with your last statement. Comparisons are useful, especially when they're disentangled from the politics. I don't really care about how Swedes are ethically superior because they have more mandated vacation and a shorter workday. What I care about are the effects. Is there a lower occurrence of burnout? Are Swedes more pro…

Two interesting points from your comments. First, Americans can work any kind of work week they want. There's a book -- 4-hour-work-week -- that a lot of folks are trying to make work. In technology teams especially. I tell my teams that I don't care how much you work or don't: what matters is productivity and predictability. Sure, lots of others don't feel that way, but it's up to each situation. If there were some…

> Americans can work any kind of work week they want

My guess is that there are actually some herd effects at work there: it would be pretty difficult in many places to take a 1 month vacation if no one else does, even if the person in question negotiated away some of their pay for extra time off.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#95

Post by rick888 »

nanairo wrote: post #80
yummyfajitas wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Go educate yourself, the average Western-European citizen has more luxury, more free time, and better health-care than the average citizen of the United States (I know, I have visited the US often). Help me educate myself. Provide some evidence.

(I am not the original poster, but I thought I'd provide some info). As he pointed out it's difficult to find objective data. But you can check: * Human Development Index ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_Human_Deve... ): the USA is at position 13. It includes things like life expectancy and education. * Satisfaction with Life index ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satisfaction_with_Life_Index ):the U…

Ignorance is bliss.

I would rather have the chance of making it big (or fail) than have the government take most of it away with huge taxes and strict rules that make it really difficult to have a successful business.

"It includes things like life expectancy and education."

Life expectancy is low because of the vast amount of people that eat crappy food (and don't exercise) in the US. I don't think this is going to change any time soon (unless it's mandated by the government).

"Income inequality (Gini coefficient)"

This to me just means that in those other countries, the government is re-distributing wealth. People aren't earning more wealth. The government is taking wealth away from people by force and giving it to the rest.

The only thing I do agree with is our bad education system system. However, our higher education institutions are some of the best in the world.

I also wonder sometimes if the reason our "satisfaction of life" index is low is because of liberal democrats that want us to be more like Sweden, Denmark, and Finland.

Would you rather be happier or have less freedoms?

I also find it really funny because Sweden, Denmark, and Finland are not only very homogeneous, but very racist. It's very difficult to go against what is considered "normal" (IE: groupthink).

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#96

Post by ugh »

chokma wrote: post #90
MaxMorlock wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It is four weeks (minimum). Please check: http://www.gesetze-im-internet.de/burlg/__3.html It is 24 working days and since Saturdays count as working days: 24 / 6 = 4 It is called "Bundesurlaubsgesetz" -- my translation: Federal Vacation Law. Does anything like that exist somewhere else?

But you do not need to take off Saturdays, which counts as part of the weekend for most (this depends on your employer). If I want to have a week long holiday, it's five days. Generally, if you live in the southern part of Germany, you also get several catholic hol(i|y)days, no matter if you are catholic or not.

It’s 24 days if and only if you work six days a week, 20 days if you work five days a week.

Depending on the state you are living in you also get between 9 and 13 holidays. Some of those will fall on weekends from time to time but six weeks (30 days) of paid vacation seem not all that unrealistic in a good year (i.e. many holidays not on weekends) if you live in Bavaria (that’s the state with the 13 holidays, eight of them not on weekends in 2010, ten in 2011, twelve in 2012 – some great years coming up ;-).

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#97

Post by jdminhbg »

timr wrote: post #84
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #56

This article is pure speculative narrative. That is, whereas most essays make a thesis, then present evidence and arguments to support that thesis, this article presents a whole story spun out of thin air, involving FDR, national health insurance, vacations, the Chinese. As such, it presents an interesting problem. You could argue with some detail --- such as the role Germany plays as a competitive partner in China -…

"This article is pure speculative narrative. That is, whereas most essays make a thesis, then present evidence and arguments to support that thesis, this article presents a whole story spun out of thin air, involving FDR, national health insurance, vacations, the Chinese." Huh. Maybe we're being A/B tested, because the article that I just read began with a clear thesis ( "European social democracy – particularly Germ…

I'm on the other side of the A/B testing. Where's the evidence, if you don't mind hitting your back button and quoting some?

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#98

Post by jeebusroxors »

timr wrote: post #84
DanielBMarkham wrote: post #56

This article is pure speculative narrative. That is, whereas most essays make a thesis, then present evidence and arguments to support that thesis, this article presents a whole story spun out of thin air, involving FDR, national health insurance, vacations, the Chinese. As such, it presents an interesting problem. You could argue with some detail --- such as the role Germany plays as a competitive partner in China -…

"This article is pure speculative narrative. That is, whereas most essays make a thesis, then present evidence and arguments to support that thesis, this article presents a whole story spun out of thin air, involving FDR, national health insurance, vacations, the Chinese." Huh. Maybe we're being A/B tested, because the article that I just read began with a clear thesis ( "European social democracy – particularly Germ…

"You can pull out these GDP per capita statistics and say that people in Mississippi are vastly wealthier than people in Frankfurt and Hamburg. That can’t be true. Just spend two months in Hamburg and spend two months in Tupelo, Mississippi. There’s something wrong if the statistics are telling you that the people in Tupelo are three times wealthier than the people in Germany."

I stopped reading after this thinking along the same lines as the OP. I'm still not fully awake but this doesn't seem like a good argument, although to be fair you didn't say the arguments were good.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#99

Post by DanielBMarkham »

jdminhbg wrote: post #97
timr wrote: post #84

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"This article is pure speculative narrative. That is, whereas most essays make a thesis, then present evidence and arguments to support that thesis, this article presents a whole story spun out of thin air, involving FDR, national health insurance, vacations, the Chinese." Huh. Maybe we're being A/B tested, because the article that I just read began with a clear thesis ( "European social democracy – particularly Germ…

I'm on the other side of the A/B testing. Where's the evidence, if you don't mind hitting your back button and quoting some?

I'd like to see some of those solutions as well. Show a problem, talk about the change made, demonstrate the solution. Was that in the article?

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#100

Post by CWuestefeld »

Nitramp wrote: post #91
CWuestefeld wrote: post #79

Earlier quoted context omitted.

European societies sacrifice a bit of growth potential and individual freedom to get better living conditions for all. Economists can tell you that this can't scale up to the whole world. Paul Graham's article explains it very well. (The following is all quotation; I'm not italicizing, in the interest of readability) If you want to reduce economic inequality instead of just improving the overall standard of living, i…

If you want to reduce economic inequality instead of just improving the overall standard of living, it's not enough just to raise up the poor. What if one of your newly minted engineers gets ambitious and goes on to become another Bill Gates? Economic inequality will be as bad as ever. I find that assertion illogical. If I raise the income niveau of low wage workers, income inequality does go down. I don't have to ke…

I really think you ought to read the full article. He addresses all of this directly.

The interesting question is where that money will come from.

That's quite the point. And to the degree that you limit income or profitability, you make it less likely that businesses will take risks.

Founding the next MS might be a little less profitable, ... we can see that Europe ... does not necessarily fit his description of a poor country

He also makes the point that this isn't binary, it's a spectrum. Making things "a little less profitable" makes innovation a little less likely.

Microsoft is quite the counter example: they pay their workers comparatively high wages.

A counter-example of what? I don't see how that relates to the argument at hand. We're discussing systemic inequality of income; the fact that one employer or another has different philosophies of compensation has little effect on the range of incomes through the USA or the world.

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