Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US • Hacker News Board

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#71

Post by fiblye » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 11:46 AM UTC

Xylakant wrote: post #62

meri_dian wrote: post #59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Education will not stop people from getting caught in the death grip of heroin. Just as education does not stop people from smoking cigarettes today. And once an addict is born, as they say, that person will struggle with addiction for the rest of their lives even if they manage to abstain. I'm all for legalization of marijuana, but legalization of heroin is a very poor idea. Heroin must be kept out of the hands of t…

The death grip of heroin is mostly unrelated to the actual medical properties of heroin (or most opioids). The worst health effects come from the impurities in the substance (Strychnine, a common additive, is generally speaking not a substance beneficial to your health), the conditions under which it's used (shared needles, lack of hygiene) and the treadmill of having to organize funds for the next shot. Medically sp…

Heroin wasn't historically a problem because the users died. Heroin's been a problem because of just how far people will go to get it, and how a massive amount of people will drop everything else in life just to get a steady supply of it.

Opiates are the most addictive substances in the world. Once someone gets a taste of it, their life is forever changed. People can smoke a cigarette a couple times and decide it's not for them. People can have beers once in a while and move on. There aren't many people who try heroin a couple times then realize they're busy and drop it forever.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#72

Post by meri_dian » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 11:53 AM UTC

arca_vorago wrote: post #68

meri_dian wrote: post #63

We are caught in an ideological chasm in the US. On one side is a harsh society wide approach like that of the Chinese. On the other hand is complete tolerance and legalization, which is more compatible with a Western social and political values. We are in an awkward spot somewhere in between. Unfortunately we must measure success of our national drug programs by the number of people who do not become junkies. I say…

"Does not adequately protect people from themselves, what do we do?" What we do as a society founded upon the principles of natural rights and liberties is stop trying to protect people from themselves. It always was, and always will be, a slippery and dangerous slope to collectivism and totalitarianism. The government has absolutely no right whatsoever to tell me what I can and can't do with my body, whether that is…

I don't accept the slippery slope argument. But, let's entertain your line of thinking.

Let's get rid of the speed limit everywhere. We don't need the stinking government telling us how fast to drive! Oh, looks like traffic deaths are going up. Hm, maybe we should institute a speed limit...

The point is that people do need to be told what to do - with an enforced penalty - in certain situations.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#73

Post by jimpick » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 11:54 AM UTC

AnabeeKnox wrote: post #54

blackbagboys wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The hope is that the "junkies" don't die. If that is all that's accomplished, that's still a success. There doesn't need to be more. Obviously there should be an option for users to enter treatment or receive some sort of assistance, but addicts should definitely not be forced into anything just to satisfy some petit bourgeois stern moral impulse, because that will ultimately drive people away and cost lives.

"petit bourgeois stern moral impulse" I don't know if you've ever met a working-class person, but I think you have things the opposite way round. It tends to be the middle-class petit-bourgeois who advocate a tolerant approach to the victims of drug abuse. Working-class people despise junkies because they are on the front-line of the associated crime, decay, danger, filth, child-neglect, disease etc.

That junkie has a mother who has spent 20 years of her life trying to get him treatment for his schizophrenia but there is no government support, and he keeps disappearing from home and winding up downtown where he finds more comfort from The drug and sold by predatory drug dealers and other people like him who will not judge him constantly.

His mother works harder than any “working class person” I have ever met.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#74

Post by acoye » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:01 PM UTC

I lived in SF for a couple years near TL and I saw people doing it on the streets.

To me this site is a good thing, harm reduction policies have shown good track record. They work.

A good exemple is the "première ligne" association in Switzerland. They have a big site in Geneva, you can see the building for the train station.

I would recommend a read of their website. http://www.premiereligne.ch/

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#75

Post by hashmal » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:15 PM UTC

formol wrote: post #3

The very lefty mayor of Paris launched one « safe site » in the city. Results : disneyland for drug dealers and addicts in the area, dead people (OD) in the street, noise, fights...

It's interesting, I never heard about such results before (and I live in Paris). Would you care to share some links for further reading?

I'm also curious to know why and how the political orientation of the mayor is relevant?

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#76

Post by fhayde » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:37 PM UTC

meri_dian wrote: post #59

colechristensen wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Make everything legal to obtain or manufacture with a license attainable though education and certification – something in between what it takes to get a driver's license and an AA degree. If you want to buy heroin you have to understand it's addictive qualities, how human biology is affected, and how to recognize the negative consequences. Attach liability to the licensee for anything purchased that resulted in harm…

Education will not stop people from getting caught in the death grip of heroin. Just as education does not stop people from smoking cigarettes today. And once an addict is born, as they say, that person will struggle with addiction for the rest of their lives even if they manage to abstain. I'm all for legalization of marijuana, but legalization of heroin is a very poor idea. Heroin must be kept out of the hands of t…

Legalize everything, and offer the appropriate counter-medication at a discounted cost. Heroine costs someone $20 per use? Methadone is $10.

You'll never keep drugs out of the hands of people who want them, all you're doing is creating artificial scarcity driving up prices and giving people like Mexican drug cartels huge financial incentives to run drugs into the country. Even if only 1/10th of their drugs make it into the US, as long as there's an demand, that supply will be exponentially worth more, and cause more harm than pharmaceutical grade heroine sold just like alcohol, tobacco, marijuana, etc...

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#77

Post by formol » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:40 PM UTC

Andrex wrote: post #7

formol wrote: post #3

The very lefty mayor of Paris launched one « safe site » in the city. Results : disneyland for drug dealers and addicts in the area, dead people (OD) in the street, noise, fights...

Sources for this would be very helpful. Always interested in alternative viewpoints!

Sources are very hidden : first result page on google (I'm talking for french people)

http://www.bfmtv.com/police-justice/paris-emotion-apres-la-m...

http://www.leparisien.fr/paris-75010/paris-le-cri-d-alarme-d...

https://www.google.fr/search?q=riverains+salle+de+shoot&sour...

to sum up : the neighbours are very unhappy about it. The area was already largely insecure, though (heaven of crack-heads).

I don't think the principle of safe site is bad, but it needs a good management team because - by definition - you can't expect any well disciplined behaviour from drug addicts.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#78

Post by arca_vorago » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:46 PM UTC

meri_dian wrote: post #72

arca_vorago wrote: post #68

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Does not adequately protect people from themselves, what do we do?" What we do as a society founded upon the principles of natural rights and liberties is stop trying to protect people from themselves. It always was, and always will be, a slippery and dangerous slope to collectivism and totalitarianism. The government has absolutely no right whatsoever to tell me what I can and can't do with my body, whether that is…

I don't accept the slippery slope argument. But, let's entertain your line of thinking. Let's get rid of the speed limit everywhere. We don't need the stinking government telling us how fast to drive! Oh, looks like traffic deaths are going up. Hm, maybe we should institute a speed limit... The point is that people do need to be told what to do - with an enforced penalty - in certain situations.

Roads are a public place, subject to constitutional reasonable regulation (by the states, not the federal government) as long as not in violation of our right to travel. So you picked a bad example. Case in point, if I own a vehicle that never leaves my ranch property it doesn't need license plates, insurance, or a drivers license to operate it, and I can go as fast as I damn well please.

What I do in the privacy of my own home is none of yours nor the governments fucking business.

>"people do need to be told what to do"

This is a disgustingly subservient slave mentality. Enjoy your self-forged shackles. The worst part is you would put them on others and tell them it is for their own good!

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#79

Post by meri_dian » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 12:54 PM UTC

aninhumer wrote: post #69

meri_dian wrote: post #61

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure how you've constructed morality in your mind, but if you choose to belittle people who want to protect innocent people from the ravages of heroin addiction, which is a lifelong sickness, then you are misguided. The real measure of success is how few people become junkies in the first place.

>The real measure of success is how few people become junkies in the first place. No, the real measure of success is how few peoples lives are ruined. If a bunch of people end up addicted to heroin, but end up living fulfilling and productive lives regardless, that's a fairly good outcome. If implementing measures to reduce the number of addicts leads to the remaining ones living in poverty and overdosing, then that'…

"but end up living fulfilling and productive lives regardles"

That doesn't happen though. Not because of existing drug policy, but because of the all consuming nature of addiction.

Re: Safe injection sites in San Francisco could be first in the US

#80

Post by messy_desk » Mon, Feb 12, 2018, 1:15 PM UTC

formol wrote: post #3

The very lefty mayor of Paris launched one « safe site » in the city. Results : disneyland for drug dealers and addicts in the area, dead people (OD) in the street, noise, fights...

This comment shows two things, 1. how projects like this will always be blamed for quality of life problems in the area, and how 2. the problems of street people and drug addicts are often much more complex and rooted in previous political clusterfucks.

In the 1990s and early 2000s, the Gare du Nord was the main place that people smugglers would assist people in travelling from France to the UK. At the time you could walk onto a Eurostar without having your papers checked by a British border police (only French passport control, who tolerated migrants travelling to the UK with false papers).

Lots of desperate and often penniless people pitched up around that area. People smuggling was linked to other forms of criminality, including prostitution and robbery by people trying to get the money to make the trip to the UK.

When the border protocol changed, the main staging points for migrants moved to Calais. But that part of Paris remained a centre for migrants to meet and connect. It also remained a centre of street dealing, robbery, other forms of low-level crime like selling fake bags, scams and snatching. It is notorious for street harassment, mainly of women. As far as I can tell, there isn't a particular overlap between people doing this and hard drug addicts.

In practice, most cities have somewhere you go to buy drugs on the street in the middle of the night. No-one wants to be that area, but trying to get it to be somewhere else doesn't really solve the problem. There are lots of things which can make this type of area less upsetting for people who have to work, live and travel through it, safe injection sites might certainly be a part of this.

Source: have lived in Paris and travelled there extensively over last 20+ years. My friend was an asylum seeker in the UK who got the Eurostar from Paris.