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How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

theguardian.com

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Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#51

Post by leetcrew »

viburnum wrote: post #30
avar wrote: post #21

There's a great and relevant Radiolab episode published just a few days ago. It discusses the Commerce Clause of the constitution[1]. Something I didn't know is that when the US government ended racial segregation in privately owned businesses they did so not on any sort of human rights or equality basis. Rather they argued that businesses being able to deny black clients service has a depressing effect on the econom…

The US Constitution is basically obsolete and terrible and you can't run a decent society without stretching it quite a bit. It does not deserve the veneration it receives.

which parts in particular are obsolete and terrible?

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#52

Post by scarface74 »

istjohn wrote: post #29

One terribly insidious aspect to racism in America is how invisible it is to white people. We are so segregated that most white people will not learn about black people's experiences with racism organically. It's only through articles like this and cell phone footage of violent police interactions that we become aware of this cruel alternative reality so many people live in. The disconnect exists within city-limits,…

The disconnect isn't just between Black and White it's between the poor and not poor. You'd be surprised if you heard the conversations between some upper middle class Blacks and if you didn't know what color they were, you would think they were some of the most racist White people in the world. (I'm Black).

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#53

Post by aaron-lebo »

leetcrew wrote: post #50
aaron-lebo wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Poor whites don't have any more power than poor minorities. Was watching a pbs doc about the rise of the klan in North Carolina. One of the big attractions was that the wealthy whites looked down on the poor whites, and by joining the klan they could at least be above someone else. The wealthy whites condoned and fought the Civil War. The poor didn't own slaves. They were probably racist and bigoted, but it was the k…

> parents often live in communities that don't pay taxes that support public schools how? pretty sure in the US everyone pays property tax (directly or indirectly), some of which is used to fund the school system. you can't just opt out of paying into that system at all.

Highland Park is a city within a city that pays no taxes to DISD.

Zuckerberg grew up in Dobb's Ferry, which is just outside of New York City's limits. He ended up at a private high school with an endowment of 1.15 billion. Now he's worth 70 billion. Not to pick on him (just an example), but there are many ways the elites segregate themselves.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#54

Post by pbhjpbhj »

istjohn wrote: post #24
brudgers wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Vi Hart and Nicki Case's Parable of the Polygons provides a model that suggests why segregation occurs even when people are willing to accept some diversity. http://ncase.me/polygons/

Yes, but the model does more to confuse than explain the problem of American racial segregation. For one, it suggests that blacks share an equal responsibility for segregation as whites. It suggests that whites and blacks are both free actors with equal power and self-determination. Neither of these are true in America, of course. Whites started out with a huge surplus of power and control over blacks, and the Civil…

>For one, it suggests that blacks share an equal responsibility for segregation as whites. //

The model on that page does nothing of the sort. You, or others, may do that in response to viewing it.

The model simply shows how individual tendency towards segregation causes macroscopic segregation and that if there are also elements that will choose diversity, in the model, then segregation can be greatly reduced.

>segregation continues to be something imposed on black people and not the result of mutual preferences //

I was looking at school information recently in the UK [1]. The statistics strongly suggested ethnic minority groups choosing schooling based in part on race and that the choice they're making is for greater segregation.

>"The data, which was processed by Professor Simon Burgess of the University of Bristol and analysed by Demos, exclusively for the Demos Integration Hub, show that children from Bangladeshi, Pakistani and Black Caribbean communities are particularly likely to attend schools with a disproportionate level of other students sharing their ethnic background." [ibid] //

Maybe you're right about USAmerica and that there are no non-white racists there. But it's clear to me that segregationist doesn't, ironically, split along racial lines.

[1] https://www.demos.co.uk/press-release/61-of-ethnic-minority-...

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#55

Post by intopieces »

leetcrew wrote: post #51
viburnum wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US Constitution is basically obsolete and terrible and you can't run a decent society without stretching it quite a bit. It does not deserve the veneration it receives.

which parts in particular are obsolete and terrible?

Oh, so many.

There’s an entire amendment devoted to preventing the quartering of troops. It had never been incorporated and is pretty much meaningless.

The second Amendment has been so twisted and misinterpreted it ought to be repealed outright and replaced with what it was intended to convey — the right of states to have their National Guards.

The Three Fifths Compromise.

The process of impeachment is broken such that if the Senate is split 50/50 the Vice President is unimpeachable.

There is no process of removing Supreme Court Justices. The Constitution only provides they serve during good behavior, no provision for senility or incapacitation.

"The Consitution: A Biography" and "The Failure of the Founding Fathers" are two excellent sources for understanding the shortcomings and history of the document.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#56

Post by cup »

scarface74 wrote: post #46

I don't disagree with the article but let me give a more positive anecdote. I'm Black and live in Forsyth County GA. Yeah this Forsyth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WErjPmFulQ0 We were looking for a house and were welcomed with opened arms by the builder, I can still go to pick up my son from a teen group where no one knows me and ask any random person have they seen my son and they know exactly who I'm talking ab…

One can always find exceptions to the rule.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#57

Post by dreta »

ActsJuvenile wrote: post #20
dreta wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can’t make the law any more strict than it already is without sacrificing everybody’s basic rights.

It's more about setting the tone. If top figures in the government and legislature take an inclusive stance and stamp out any racists issues, populous tend to pick up on that vibe.

What top public figures aren't strongly against racism exactly?

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#58

Post by intopieces »

redblacktree wrote: post #38
viburnum wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The US Constitution is basically obsolete and terrible and you can't run a decent society without stretching it quite a bit. It does not deserve the veneration it receives.

I would argue that this means we should fix the constitution through the amendment process, not toss the baby out with the bathwater.

Veneration based on historical precedence is a fundamental weakness. It reduces the document to no more than a talisman. Powerless, ineffectual, and clung to out of comfort.

It should be scrapped entirely and redebated every 50 years.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#59

Post by gottathrow »

scarface74 wrote: post #52
istjohn wrote: post #29

One terribly insidious aspect to racism in America is how invisible it is to white people. We are so segregated that most white people will not learn about black people's experiences with racism organically. It's only through articles like this and cell phone footage of violent police interactions that we become aware of this cruel alternative reality so many people live in. The disconnect exists within city-limits,…

The disconnect isn't just between Black and White it's between the poor and not poor. You'd be surprised if you heard the conversations between some upper middle class Blacks and if you didn't know what color they were, you would think they were some of the most racist White people in the world. (I'm Black).

Your comments in this thread are fascinating and I'd love to hear your take on something. In the upper middle class, largely liberal society that I'm part of, I sometimes get an uncomfortable feeling from how people talk about racism. They believe in racial equality and tolerance, which is great. But something uglier seems mixed in too. To me it feels like a class prejudice that wants to see the poor as beneath them, and racism is the perfect ground to stake that claim on because it's so objectively vicious. So on the one hand there's a sincere wish to be tolerant and accepting, but on the other hand there's this dark side: we want to see the poor as bad (racist), because if they're bad then we're good, they deserve to be poor and we deserve to be rich. Upper classes have always seen themselves as more virtuous in this way. They just define their virtue differently now. The new definition is arguably better because racism really is bad, but it's also convenient, and since there's not much wish to look at other things that are also bad, it doesn't seem to me to come out of a true feeling for equality. It is more like a reshuffling of the social pecking order (not the top layers, of course, just the bottom ones). When I hear people talk about uncouth racists, it's easy to imagine that in past times they would have been talking about how bad the poor smell and how crude their manners were. It feels like the distinction is still on that level, only the language has shifted. I'm sensitive to this because I grew up poor, and when I hear the unempathetic and even brutal way that many seemingly nice people talk about their inferiors, I shrink away internally. It's easy to imagine that they're talking about me too, even though I belong to their class now.

Re: How black people still need to outwit racists in rural America

#60

Post by scarface74 »

cup wrote: post #56
scarface74 wrote: post #46

I don't disagree with the article but let me give a more positive anecdote. I'm Black and live in Forsyth County GA. Yeah this Forsyth: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WErjPmFulQ0 We were looking for a house and were welcomed with opened arms by the builder, I can still go to pick up my son from a teen group where no one knows me and ask any random person have they seen my son and they know exactly who I'm talking ab…

One can always find exceptions to the rule.

Is it an exception or do we mix racism with classicism? No I don't believe that racism is dead but do believe classicism is worse. Studies show that minorities have a harder time getting jobs, apartments, and are stopped more often by the police.

But studies have also shown that income mobility regardless of race is statistically rare.

I've heard a lot of classist comments from both White people (calling people "red necks" and "trailer trash") and upper income black people ("I don't want to live in a majority Black neighborhood around "them people")

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