Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

America's misguided culture of overwork

salon.com

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

11–20 of 192 posts

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#11

Post by lenni »

Hagelin wrote: post #3

"How did Germany become such a great place to work in the first place? The Allies did it.” What? I’m pretty sure the European labour movement and the Social Democrats wouldn’t agree with that answer. On a list of possible explanations, I think ”You can thank the Americans for it” would rank rather low.

Maybe not so much in this specific instance, but Germany's economic and political structure (decentralisation of power and money) was a direct result of the occupation by the Allies, who wanted to avoid a strong central government. America was hugely influential in 1945-70.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#12

Post by dsplittgerber »

lenni wrote: post #6

Hmm, I enjoy hearing all the praise heap onto us (Germany) latetly. There was a time when Germany was called the sick, fat old man of Europe, too inflexible and and stubborn to able to adjust to a changing environment. I'm sure once the growth lessens the tone will change again - I'll enjoy it as long as it lasts.

Which growth are you referring to? Growth has overall been dismal at best.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#13

Post by aci »

mike-cardwell wrote: post #2

I'm surprised wealth distribution wasn't mentioned in the stuff about GDP comparison. I'm no Economist but I was under the impression that wealth is distributed more evenly in European countries than in the US. We have rich people here in Europe but the US seems to have lots of insanely rich people and lots of poor people to go with it...

This is not only your impression. Look for example at this Wikpedia page: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_income_equ...

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#14

Post by ugh »

dsplittgerber wrote: post #10

This guy has lots of facts wrong - makes you wonder about his accuracy in research: - no federally mandated six weeks of vacation time (though 4-5 weeks are the norm, even in private sector) - University tuition has been introduced recently (though still low, but will rise as obvious source of gov revenue) - Free nursing care / child care for a small percentage of toddlers only - No labor minister of that name (he is…

Four weeks are federally mandated.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#15

Post by lenni »

dsplittgerber wrote: post #12
lenni wrote: post #6

Hmm, I enjoy hearing all the praise heap onto us (Germany) latetly. There was a time when Germany was called the sick, fat old man of Europe, too inflexible and and stubborn to able to adjust to a changing environment. I'm sure once the growth lessens the tone will change again - I'll enjoy it as long as it lasts.

Which growth are you referring to? Growth has overall been dismal at best.

2.2% economic growth in the last quarter; higher than anything since reunification.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/aug/13/german-econom...

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#16

Post by Hagelin »

lenni wrote: post #11
Hagelin wrote: post #3

"How did Germany become such a great place to work in the first place? The Allies did it.” What? I’m pretty sure the European labour movement and the Social Democrats wouldn’t agree with that answer. On a list of possible explanations, I think ”You can thank the Americans for it” would rank rather low.

Maybe not so much in this specific instance, but Germany's economic and political structure (decentralisation of power and money) was a direct result of the occupation by the Allies, who wanted to avoid a strong central government. America was hugely influential in 1945-70.

Sure, but labour laws in Germany are closely related to those of other Northern European countries, such as the Scandinavian ones. Like them or not, the labour movement in the form of the unions and the Social Democratic parties fought long and hard for them. To claim that we have the Americans to thank for them is really rather absurd.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#17

Post by gst »

dhoe wrote: post #4

It's an interesting topic, and quite complex. In my line of work (high level tech support), measuring productivity is relatively straightforward, and the European team with its 30 days of holidays and no overtime at all beats the US team in average output per year easily. Both lose out to the Indians, whom I admire a lot for the pure raw effort. On the other hand, I've heard local startups complain about the difficul…

Do startups really need these hours? Or do they only think they need them? It's not the hours that count, it's the output.

For example, I can work 60 or 80 hours a week instead of 40, but it doesn't really make a difference because the effective output will stay more or less the same. Without sufficient leisure time I'm just slower and I'll make errors when working.

In addition, with progressive systems it doesn't even make sense to work that much. 20 hours more a week reduces my leisure time to effectively zero. On the other hand, even if this additional hours were paid, the effective difference would be minimal, due to the high taxes I'd have to pay for them.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#18

Post by gaius »

mike-cardwell wrote: post #2

I'm surprised wealth distribution wasn't mentioned in the stuff about GDP comparison. I'm no Economist but I was under the impression that wealth is distributed more evenly in European countries than in the US. We have rich people here in Europe but the US seems to have lots of insanely rich people and lots of poor people to go with it...

Well, it is more subtle than that, the distinction between wealth and money. For example, the Rothschilds cash fortune isn't comparable to the paper worth of someone like Gates. But arguably in any practical sense, the lifestyle they live, they're wealthier.

European ideas about wealth are less about cash and more about (inherited/inheritable) tangible assets and connections to people at a similar level.

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#19

Post by teoruiz »

dsplittgerber wrote: post #10

This guy has lots of facts wrong - makes you wonder about his accuracy in research: - no federally mandated six weeks of vacation time (though 4-5 weeks are the norm, even in private sector) - University tuition has been introduced recently (though still low, but will rise as obvious source of gov revenue) - Free nursing care / child care for a small percentage of toddlers only - No labor minister of that name (he is…

> - University tuition has been introduced recently (though still low, but will rise as obvious source of gov revenue)

In Spain (another socialist economy by the article standards) University tuition is something between 600-1000 EUR a year and has not risen for a good decade now (except for the inflation).

Re: America's misguided culture of overwork

#20

Post by dsplittgerber »

lenni wrote: post #15
dsplittgerber wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which growth are you referring to? Growth has overall been dismal at best.

2.2% economic growth in the last quarter; higher than anything since reunification. http://www.guardian.co.uk/business/2010/aug/13/german-econom...

Guess my irony didn't show. Compared to the US and Asia and even EU-growth, Germany has not performed ahead of the pack at all, growth-wise. It has trailed behind US growth for years.
Post reply on HN