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Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

news.ycombinator.com

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Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

#31

Post by pacala »

imauld wrote: post #9

Because they all have jobs. And if they are looking for a new one they can pick where they want to go because by virtue of being good engineers it's easy for them to find jobs since everyone is looking for good engineers. And if they aren't looking, why not? My best guess (aside from being happy where they are) is that the engineer interview process is broken. People don't want to go sit in a room and grilled on CS 1…

From the other side of the interview table, how do you tell apart engineers from bulls__t masters, who take credit for their team's work without ever having a positive engineering contribution?

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

#32

Post by Waterluvian »

pacala wrote: post #31
imauld wrote: post #9

Because they all have jobs. And if they are looking for a new one they can pick where they want to go because by virtue of being good engineers it's easy for them to find jobs since everyone is looking for good engineers. And if they aren't looking, why not? My best guess (aside from being happy where they are) is that the engineer interview process is broken. People don't want to go sit in a room and grilled on CS 1…

From the other side of the interview table, how do you tell apart engineers from bulls__t masters, who take credit for their team's work without ever having a positive engineering contribution?

Trust people's honesty. Fire frauds fast.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

#33

Post by [deleted] »

sheepmullet wrote: post #29
txsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There may be many "engineers", but they are not really dedicated to their field. What qualifies you to decide someone isn’t “dedicated” enough?

Results are all that matters. All the top devs I know have had to put the hours in. Same as all the top lawyers and all the top engineers. If you can be in the top 5-10% of your field while never working more than a 40 hour week and no side projects or out of hours study then more power to you. But that's rare. When I was, arguably, in the top 5% I was working 45-50 hours a week at a great job and doing 2 hours a day…

[deleted]

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

#34

Post by txsh »

sheepmullet wrote: post #29
txsh wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> There may be many "engineers", but they are not really dedicated to their field. What qualifies you to decide someone isn’t “dedicated” enough?

Results are all that matters. All the top devs I know have had to put the hours in. Same as all the top lawyers and all the top engineers. If you can be in the top 5-10% of your field while never working more than a 40 hour week and no side projects or out of hours study then more power to you. But that's rare. When I was, arguably, in the top 5% I was working 45-50 hours a week at a great job and doing 2 hours a day…

I have reservations to take my wife out on Valentines Day. Should I instead divorce her so I can spend more time balancing binary trees? Would that get me hired, sir?

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

#36

Post by sidlls »

pacala wrote: post #31
imauld wrote: post #9

Because they all have jobs. And if they are looking for a new one they can pick where they want to go because by virtue of being good engineers it's easy for them to find jobs since everyone is looking for good engineers. And if they aren't looking, why not? My best guess (aside from being happy where they are) is that the engineer interview process is broken. People don't want to go sit in a room and grilled on CS 1…

From the other side of the interview table, how do you tell apart engineers from bulls__t masters, who take credit for their team's work without ever having a positive engineering contribution?

Have them talk about the problems they solved at their current and previous employers, and get to some technical depth while doing so.

This doesn't mean asking him to implement some CS algorithm from scratch on the board or doing a Big-O analysis.

It means asking him about the specific methods and how/why they worked and going into some depth. His former employers' "company secrets" aren't a good excuse for hedging here, either: with few exceptions he should be able to use a contrived, but representative system, data, etc. to explain if he truly contributed to the solution.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

#37

Post by invalidOrTaken »

I think a big part of the problem is insufficient agency on both sides of the equation.

I was talking to a potential client today and he told me that he'd been considering hiring an engineer with a strong "official" background (Cisco, etc), who had billed himself at $100/hr.

"I don't think I can afford that," my friend said.

The next day the engineer messaged him saying he'd cut his rate to $50/hr.

In other words: No one has any idea what they're doing. It's still very much the Wild West. The in-demand currency, I've concluded, is security. If you're funded to the point of not worrying about payroll: engineers will flock to you. If you're battle-tested in scaling something huge: terrified founders will follow you around.

The critical skill, IMO, is finding entities who could be great, with your help. One of FAANG's strengths is that they pay their devs so well that they can stop worrying about money, and feel safe enough to get absorbed in whatever problem is on their plate.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

#38

Post by sidlls »

This is a broad question and really depends on the context and environment.

Outside of major tech hubs the answer usually boils down to "insufficient supply of any quality above poor".

In the major tech hubs it usually boils down to the glut of CS graduates who think they know everything or that they are smarter than everybody else perpetuating the CS hazing ritual that is the modern interview process. The bar is set too high using a bad method of measuring skill: the bad definition of "good" leads to an artificial scarcity of "good" engineers.

Good engineers aren't going to tolerate that crap, and will be able to get positions that outside of the typical hiring process.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

#39

Post by PaulRobinson »

git-pull wrote: post #3

Are you sure it's not the other way around? Maybe it's hard for good engineers to find good employers and bosses. 9/10 of the technical screens I take are bunk. It boils down to what's fresh on my mind that moment; random trivia. I feel the comment I made "It's an employer's market" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12667346 rings true. There's no incentive for the employer to apply more thought into holistically…

You're generalising and stereotyping in a way that suggests you're not very experienced, so perhaps we can put down the bizarre sweeping statements to inexperience.

I'm an experienced engineer and have hired many people. I specifically look for people who are better than me and I can learn from, even if I'm going to be their boss.

Why would I do that? I believe if you want to get better at something, hang out with people who are already better. I get better if I work with better people and, as it happens, my bosses/shareholders are happy with that too because they end up with a more talented workforce.

The trick then is making them want to come and work with me. If I'm super lucky, they have gaps that others in the team can help with, and that way they can still grow within the team.

It's no different to building a band: Paul, John, George and Ringo all knew the others were better at something than they were, and knew that was the secret to them all individually stepping up and beyond their previous abilities.

The fact you've worked in toxic environments with toxic people is something I am sorry to hear. I sincerely hope it gets better for you one day. However, please don't make your experiences a statement of fact about the state of technical management and leadership in general.

Re: Ask HN: Why is it so hard to hire good engineers?

#40

Post by sidlls »

git-pull wrote: post #3

Are you sure it's not the other way around? Maybe it's hard for good engineers to find good employers and bosses. 9/10 of the technical screens I take are bunk. It boils down to what's fresh on my mind that moment; random trivia. I feel the comment I made "It's an employer's market" https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=12667346 rings true. There's no incentive for the employer to apply more thought into holistically…

I agree that it's an employer's market: that comment you linked to is very good.

I've seen the "reluctant" manager before (and been a direct report to one), but I've always marveled at their existence. Managers ought to not be coding. Their senior (i.e. Lead) direct reports ought to be the ones doing the architecture and design work which the manager might be involved in discussions about, but only in the role of an advisor.

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