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Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

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Re: Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

#81

Post by michael_storm »

mwcampbell wrote: post #68
michael_storm wrote: post #64

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I’m disagreeing with that nuance. I’m saying that blind people should be able to enjoy the same things that sighted people can, rather than developers deciding for them whether or not blind people are in the target market.

Your strident advocacy is admirable, and that's why I upvoted your first comment. But we have to deal with reality here. Some tasks simply require normal sight. Believe me, as a legally blind person myself, I wish I could drive, but I understand why I can't and accept it. The same applies for some software applications. So all I can ask is that developers pay attention to accessibility unless there's some reason why…

Fair enough. I think we’re pretty close together on that.

Re: Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

#82

Post by borodust »

TeMPOraL wrote: post #10
hjek wrote: post #8

It's even got bindings for Chicken Scheme: http://wiki.call-cc.org/eggref/4/nuklear

Also some for Common Lisp: https://github.com/borodust/bodge-nuklear They are purpose-built for a particular engine though, so I'm not sure how generally usable they are.

This one is a generic but full thin wrapper over Nuklear. It's not tied to cl-bodge in any way :) https://github.com/borodust/nuklear-blob is an asdf system with loadable compiled shared libraries for it. Hopefully, it soon will be in the main quicklisp distribution.

Re: Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

#84

Post by billsix »

mwcampbell wrote: post #40
bastijn wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Accessibility is always important to mention, which is why we should thank you for reminding us. In return, you have to understand that not every next important application will be used by blind people or people with disabilities, and as of such there is still room for people to develop new UI toolkits if they so please. Again, thanks for reminding everybody. People need to think about it. Your advice could be toned…

Thanks for your feedback. I do try to control the tone of my comments on this subject, because I get emotional about it, but I know a vitriolic comment isn't helpful. Still, I find it hard to moderate the scope of my advice. Several years ago, a blind acquaintance of mine briefly lost his job because some developer didn't pay enough attention to accessibility in an application that he was required to use. His employe…

> Several years ago, a blind acquaintance of mine briefly lost his job because some developer didn't pay enough attention to accessibility in an application that he was required to use

Can you explain in more detail? As a person ignorant of these types of issues, I'm having a hard time understanding the connection between the lack of accessibility in an app to the firing of a blind employee.

Re: Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

#85

Post by kaslai »

chubot wrote: post #47
flohofwoe wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> and confuses the implementation and interface Normally you have the implementation inside an "#ifdef IMPLEMENTATION" block, and the API interface (public structs and functions) outside of the implementation block, and all private functions inside the implementation block are defined as 'static' so they are not visible outside the special implementation source file. In the places where you include the header for nor…

OK I get that the big .h file is still logically separated into an .h and .c, like you say. But what about preprocessing times? If you're including a library from many of your source files, then even if it always hits the #if 0 case, the preprocessor still has to parse the implementation. It matters for distributed compilation too -- more preprocessed bytes have to be sent over the network. I'm sure there are cases w…

The C preprocessor is the least of your worries with regard to compile times. Parsing a #if 0 can be done almost as quickly as a memcmp operation. Even my naive implementation can process an #if 0 at around 600 MBps. Even if you had a gigabyte of text in an #if 0, that's only about 2 more seconds on the compile, provided your disk can manage the throughput.

Re: Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

#86

Post by Myrmornis »

mwcampbell wrote: post #17

Before you use this in your next important application, please read the comment on accessibility that I posted the other day on the LCUI thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16329640

I think your comments here and in the other thread are thoughtful and well-intentioned and are in general the right comments to make.

However, I must admit that the incidents where UC Berkeley and other universities removed public access to many thousands of hours of videos of online undergraduate lectures severely reduced the extent of my sympathy for accessibility advocates.

It sounds like a no-brainer to be sympathetic to the needs of disabled minorities, but in fact I would suggest that if the community of accessibility advocates wants to be successful in their aims, then they need to absolutely avoid being associated with the intellectual vandalism we saw at UC Berkeley and elsewhere.

Re: Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

#87

Post by mwcampbell »

billsix wrote: post #84
mwcampbell wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Thanks for your feedback. I do try to control the tone of my comments on this subject, because I get emotional about it, but I know a vitriolic comment isn't helpful. Still, I find it hard to moderate the scope of my advice. Several years ago, a blind acquaintance of mine briefly lost his job because some developer didn't pay enough attention to accessibility in an application that he was required to use. His employe…

> Several years ago, a blind acquaintance of mine briefly lost his job because some developer didn't pay enough attention to accessibility in an application that he was required to use Can you explain in more detail? As a person ignorant of these types of issues, I'm having a hard time understanding the connection between the lack of accessibility in an app to the firing of a blind employee.

Sure. We're getting off on a tangent now, but I guess that's why people can collapse subthreads.

Here's what happened as I remember it. The blind employee, Darrell, was providing technical support for a client company on behalf of his employer. At some point after he had taken on this role, the client added a requirement that anyone who worked with them had to use the Seibel CRM system in "high interactivity" mode. If I recall correctly from talking to Darrell, the high interactivity version of Seibel at this time (2006) used the Microsoft JVM. That, combined with the fact that the app implemented some custom controls with no regard for accessibility, made it completely unusable to him. So his employer laid him off. Luckily for him, they rehired him shortly after that, but only because they found a whole new role for him. One can question whether the real problem was the app developer, the client, or the employer. But the inaccessibility of the app was a critical factor.

Re: Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

#88

Post by mwcampbell »

Myrmornis wrote: post #86
mwcampbell wrote: post #17

Before you use this in your next important application, please read the comment on accessibility that I posted the other day on the LCUI thread: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=16329640

I think your comments here and in the other thread are thoughtful and well-intentioned and are in general the right comments to make. However, I must admit that the incidents where UC Berkeley and other universities removed public access to many thousands of hours of videos of online undergraduate lectures severely reduced the extent of my sympathy for accessibility advocates. It sounds like a no-brainer to be sympat…

What Berkeley did with its lectures is not the fault of accessibility advocates. I'll just point you to this comment from a blind friend: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=14580342

Re: Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

#89

Post by wott »

zevv wrote: post #13

I really do not understand why 'single header' is considered a good thing, but I see this more and more often on libraries. What is the reason all the code is put in the header file?

I have mostly seen it done by (young) people who come from web dev. They bring their bad habits together with them. And they usually don't get a very warm welcome for that.

I mean, we've been nicely organising our sources in files, modules and libraries for 30 years, and that's been fine: very easy, logical and giving us many benefits (such as quick partial builds, splitting different operations, isolating problems for a much easier resolution, and so on) but suddenly they show up and it's too difficult for them and they prefer to dump thousands and thousands of lines in a single compilation unit and have all things interfere with each other...

Re: Nuklear: A single-header ANSI C GUI library

#90

Post by geobourazanas »

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