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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#551

Post by screye »

TheOtherHobbes wrote: post #434
screye wrote: post #354

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yep. My classmates from Chem.E had more classes in common with us mechanical engineers than any other branch. Thermo, fluid dynamics, CFD and heat transfer is where it is at.

There are huge overlaps between the different kinds of engineering - not quite enough to support a single unified core curriculum, but enough to make it obvious that there's a lot of similar math across all the disciplines, and only the emphasis varies. The big problem with engineering isn't the specialisms, it's the name. Outsiders still think engineers are people who wear oil-covered overalls and are essentially me…

I completely feel you. I had EE friends being asked to fix light bulbs and MechE being asked to fix cars.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#552

Post by malvosenior »

joshuamorton wrote: post #550
malvosenior wrote: post #547

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do you really believe that nothing we do matters? That it’s all a roll of the dice or uncontrollably riding the waves of systematic oppression and privilege? I don’t see how that’s useful. Yeah, life is not always fair but if you don’t believe in free will or that you can actually have some impact on your own existence, then what’s the point of even living it? And let’s be real, if you’re good at what you do, you’ll…

>Do you really believe that nothing we do matters? That it’s all a roll of the dice or uncontrollably riding the waves of systematic oppression and privilege? No, and this is the second time now that you've made a ridiculous strawman out of my statements. I'm saying systematic oppression and privilege matter and have an impact. This is opposed to what you said which, if I understand correctly is "work hard and you'll…

You say this:

> To put it simply, you need to accept that there are people who made good choices as you did, and aren't successful despite their hard work and good choices.

I 100% disagree. If you make good decisions and work hard you'll be more successful than you would have been without doing that. If you study something with economic value, you'll get to participate in that value (if you're good).

I've never seen someone who is actually good at what they do (if it's something that's valued economically -- I've seen plenty of poor but skilled musicians for instance) live in destitution. Not once.

> There are a lot of people that don't have the means to "become a good developer".

There are people who don't have the mental capacity to do it yes, but I accept that and have no problem with it. We can't all be successful, utopias are a fantasy. I'm talking about the people with the capability to be successful. They should work hard and not give a moment's thought to anyone telling them to "check their privilege". It's a pointless exercise, you don't owe anyone an apology for doing well.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#553

Post by joshuamorton »

malvosenior wrote: post #552
joshuamorton wrote: post #550

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Do you really believe that nothing we do matters? That it’s all a roll of the dice or uncontrollably riding the waves of systematic oppression and privilege? No, and this is the second time now that you've made a ridiculous strawman out of my statements. I'm saying systematic oppression and privilege matter and have an impact. This is opposed to what you said which, if I understand correctly is "work hard and you'll…

You say this: > To put it simply, you need to accept that there are people who made good choices as you did, and aren't successful despite their hard work and good choices. I 100% disagree. If you make good decisions and work hard you'll be more successful than you would have been without doing that. If you study something with economic value, you'll get to participate in that value (if you're good). I've never seen…

>If you make good decisions and work hard you'll be more successful than you would have been without doing that.

Sure, but relative success is not particularly relevant to what we've been discussing. I'm sure that many people from your hometown are relatively more successful than others. But you've already said that they aren't successful in a concrete sense.

My point is that

>study something with economic value

>someone who is actually good at what they do

is not an opportunity available to everyone. The opportunity to study something with economic value is a privilege. There are many people who don't have that privilege either due to economic or time constraints. If you're argument is that "people who had the opportunity to study something of economic value are able to be successful with only hard work", then I'd agree.

But those people already got lucky/privileged/an opportunity that isn't available to everyone when they had the ability to spend time and study something of economic value.

You can't "work hard and study something of economic value" if you have to work two jobs to keep the lights on. There aren't enough hours. It doesn't matter what your mental capacity is. Your physical capacity is too small.

>you don't owe anyone an apology for doing well.

And I never said you did. Please, again, listen to what I'm actually saying, and don't continue to make things up. I get that you disagree with me, but that means that you should be careful to read what I'm actually saying, not be biased by your predispositions. Remember that this conversation began because I said you misunderstood what privilege was. Responses like this make it look like you're not engaging in good faith and simply want to argue against privilege because you've been told you should disagree with it, and that you're unwilling to learn what it actually is.

Edit:

>I'm talking about the people with the capability to be successful.

Right, and I'm simply saying that the capability to be successful is not solely your innate intelligence or whatever, but also your in part your circumstances.

To give a simple example, which is more likely: that your children will get accepted into Harvard Law, or that Malia Obama's eventual children will?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#554

Post by malvosenior »

joshuamorton wrote: post #553
malvosenior wrote: post #552

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You say this: > To put it simply, you need to accept that there are people who made good choices as you did, and aren't successful despite their hard work and good choices. I 100% disagree. If you make good decisions and work hard you'll be more successful than you would have been without doing that. If you study something with economic value, you'll get to participate in that value (if you're good). I've never seen…

>If you make good decisions and work hard you'll be more successful than you would have been without doing that. Sure, but relative success is not particularly relevant to what we've been discussing. I'm sure that many people from your hometown are relatively more successful than others. But you've already said that they aren't successful in a concrete sense. My point is that >study something with economic value >som…

> There are many people who don't have that privilege either due to economic or time constraints.

This goes back to my early statement about school not teaching valuable skills. I told you I was a poor student, that was because I spent my time learning about computers instead of the curriculum I saw as wasteful of my time. You have to have the strength to make those types of decisions. Was it easy? Absolutely not, I paid all kinds of prices for doing such a thing. I stood by my convictions though, and thus have little sympathy for those who don't.

> You can't "work hard and study something of economic value" if you have to work two jobs to keep the lights on.

As mentioned above, if you're just starting to think about these things when you're old enough to work two jobs, you've already made bad decisions that are going to be very hard to reverse.

> Responses like this make it look like you're not engaging in good faith and simply want to argue against privilege because you've been told you should disagree with it, and that you're unwilling to learn what it actually is.

I'm arguing with you (neither of us are convincing each other of anything at this point) because you literally told me that my life was invalid and my philosophy as defined by my experiences are due to my own cognitive bias. You have no idea who I am yet feel totally comfortable saying such a thing.

If you take anything away from this it should be that if you're going to tell someone that their life experience is invalid, you're not going to convince them of anything. In fact they'll just entrench their positions. I'd eliminate that from your rhetorical bag of tricks if I were you.

And with that I'm done. We both learned nothing, and I'm still convinced that the core of your message is routed in smugness. Maybe you'll have better luck if you avoid making assumptions about people you've never met.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#555

Post by joshuamorton »

malvosenior wrote: post #554
joshuamorton wrote: post #553

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>If you make good decisions and work hard you'll be more successful than you would have been without doing that. Sure, but relative success is not particularly relevant to what we've been discussing. I'm sure that many people from your hometown are relatively more successful than others. But you've already said that they aren't successful in a concrete sense. My point is that >study something with economic value >som…

> There are many people who don't have that privilege either due to economic or time constraints. This goes back to my early statement about school not teaching valuable skills. I told you I was a poor student, that was because I spent my time learning about computers instead of the curriculum I saw as wasteful of my time. You have to have the strength to make those types of decisions. Was it easy? Absolutely not, I…

>As mentioned above, if you're just starting to think about these things when you're old enough to work two jobs, you've already made bad decisions that are going to be very hard to reverse.

I mean, I know people who were working multiple jobs in their early to mid teens. Are you suggesting that middle school is when you really need to be making choices about your career prospects? Its this kind of comment that really convinces me that you had a lot more "privilege" than you want to admit. A roof over your head, a stable home, and access to technology and resources are privileges that you appear to have had, and are not as universal as you seem to believe.

>my life was invalid

What does this mean? I'm absolutely willing to say that its inane to base your entire moral philosophy on a single person's experience. But that doesn't mean that your life or experiences are invalid, just that generalizing them to everyone is ridiculous. That's the entire point though not everyone's circumstances are the same as yours. That's the whole central point of what privilege is about. That doesn't make your life "invalid", again, I don't know what that means. Its real, I'm sure it happened. It worked for you. That's great. That doesn't make it generalizable. But you seem to once again be misinterpreting my statements that your experiences are not generalizable as your experiences not being real. That's completely untrue, and I don't know why you feel the need to so completely misinterpret my words.

I'm not making any assumptions about you beyond that you are a human being, a human being who suffers from the same cognitive biases as every other human being. In the absence of any compelling evidence to the contrary, that absolutely seems like a sane assumption to make.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#556

Post by ABCLAW »

laythea wrote: post #444
hobbyjogger wrote: post #428

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Your point is a good one, but to me it confirms the comment you are responding to. > The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects cover alone renders this impossible You seem to be an example of a programmer that can be good and proficient in many different fi…

I think you misinterpreted me a little. I think the reason that lawyers and doctors cannot "jump around" is not because, for example, a lawyer cannot absorb the information required to be both a good corporate lawyer and a good litigator, due to it being too much. They can. It is that the system that they choose to be in (law/medicine) demands the individual to be certified and formally trained to such an extent that…

The (jurisdictions will have their own phrasing) 'demand' placed upon lawyers is that they are competent at the work they're doing.

The magnitude of knowledge needed to push a company to become public or undergo a merger, to litigate a divorce with children in custody, to defend an individual in a murder trial, or to litigate an aboriginal rights claim is substantial and there is very little overlap between them.

The issue isn't the regulatory requirement for competence - it's that the fields of specialization require years to become decent in.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#557

Post by ahultgren »

bigmanwalter wrote: post #494
ahultgren wrote: post #462

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you saying that you think you will be able to climb faster than everyone else and when finished (when are you rich enough btw?) be better at making an impact than all the other efforts trying to change the world? At least be honest. It's not that it's the most efficient way to spend your money; you simply want to be the hero. While letting your spare coins trickle down to those below. And it's ok cause you'll pay…

I don't have to climb faster than others, but I would like to peak in wealth and influence before I come up with my own ultimate plans. That will likely be around the age of 50 or 60. We must all do our part to look out for others. I give away whatever I can afford to friends and family who are short on money. I accumulate relatively little compared to my earning potential. But I am also laying the groundwork to help…

> But I am also laying the groundwork to help others further down the road. > I command a high wage > [I] accumulate capital faster than most people > A factory worker makes less than a third of what I do > I can make a larger impact than them > Most people do not earn enough to accumulate any meaningful capital in their lifetime

You are presenting pretty much every argument i can think of for why it's a problem that wealth generates wealth. That the very fact that you earn more than others is what prevents them from accumulating meaningful capital. Yet i don't see you fighting for wealth redistribution, which is a proven way of making an impact.

If you had said: "i believe i earn more than i deserve", "i have mostly been lucky", "hard working factory workers should earn more", or "free healthcare and education!", i might have believed that you planned to fight for making people who are rich like you at 60 slightly less rich (relatively). But you didn't. So i maintain my position that you should at least be honest.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#558

Post by regulation_d »

giobox wrote: post #322
namelost wrote: post #158

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you…

> There are "law schools" and "med schools" to teach you all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor. Programmer now, gained a law degree in a previous life. Know lots of folks who studied medicine. The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects co…

One of my law professors speculated that you learn about 3% of what you need to be a lawyer in law school. At the time, I thought that was a bit conservative. In hindsight, it seems pretty fair.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#560

Post by [deleted] »

sheepmullet wrote: post #479
dsacco wrote: post #400

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Continuing with the example from the article: law and medicine are also hard. Try teaching those to the same set of people. > Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Programmers are not at all unique in their need to understand significant domain knowledge. Essentially every knowledge-based field, including those w…

> law and medicine Law and medicine also trend towards bimodal compensation. There is an enourmous earnings difference between the top echelon of lawyers and all the other lawyers. Same thing for specialist surgeons.

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