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Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

nytimes.com

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Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#61

Post by cryptonector »

namelost wrote: post #27
waqf wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're reading it correctly and it's working as intended. The people who should have reasonably expected that their job involves overtime are the ones who shouldn't be able to demand punitive extra pay when it turns out that their job involves overtime. Maybe it sounds more palatable said the other way round: the people whose job can't reasonably be expected to involve overtime are the ones who most need statutory pr…

The point of overtime pay is to incentivise employers to employ extra workers instead of overworking the ones they already have into the grave. It doesn't matter whether it is expected or not, unless the job intrinsically requires overtime and cannot be done by hiring extra workers. So exceptions for trucking, perhaps, but exceptions for "packing for shipment" are definitely total bullshit!

Not always. Sometimes it's about safety (you don't want employees having to drive too many hours).

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#62

Post by radicalbyte »

tzs wrote: post #33

Question: the Wikipedia article on this subject [1] gives this example as a case where including the comma would create ambiguity: To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God The ambiguity is that dedication could be read as a dedication to two entities: To , and or to three entities: To , , and I agree with that. However, isn't it also ambiguous WITHOUT the Oxford comma? It can be to three entities, same as with the comma: To ,…

I agree with you, the correct way to write that is with dashes:

  To my mother - Ayn Rand - and God.
Or or the parentheses:

  To my mother (Ayn Rand) and God.
Then you disambiguate the extra information over the first item in the list. Which makes way more sense then including it in the list and assuming that the reader will disambiguate via their external contextual knowledge.

How any rational and intelligent person could argue for anything else is beyond me. Or maybe I've stumbled upon the dark secret of the humanities?

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#63

Post by radicalbyte »

kspiteri wrote: post #46
tzs wrote: post #33

Question: the Wikipedia article on this subject [1] gives this example as a case where including the comma would create ambiguity: To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God The ambiguity is that dedication could be read as a dedication to two entities: To , and or to three entities: To , , and I agree with that. However, isn't it also ambiguous WITHOUT the Oxford comma? It can be to three entities, same as with the comma: To ,…

"To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter" is not ambiguous without the Oxford comma, but would be with it.

It is ambiguous without external context; and is used to demarcate the last item in the list (at least that's what I was taught in school in the UK).

For example:

  To joe blogs, the pope, my cat and ferrari.
So the Pope is called Joe and is a cat?

Let's think for a moment. How would I write that if Pope Joe was my Cat?

  To joe blogs (the pope and my cat) and ferrari.
And for your example, if I only had the comma to punctuate then this is the only way I could write it unambiguously:

  To my mother Ayn Rand, and my daughter.
I think that this whole thread is an excellent argument against any attempts to encode any sort of rule set in a language wholly incapable of encoding it unambiguously.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#64

Post by grzm »

cryptonector wrote: post #59
grzm wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter" - Ayn Rand can't be in apposition of my mother as there's no comma setting Ayn Rand off from my daughter - Similarly, Ayn Rand and my daughter are not in apposition - my daughter and my mother are mutually exclusive This is described in more detail here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma#Ambiguity > "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and my daughter" Adding the Oxford comma c…

But here we're using semantics to disambiguate. It works, sure, but it works in fewer cases than punctuating/rephrasing to avoid the ambiguity grammatically rather than semantically. Semantic disambiguation also imposes a higher cognitive load on the reader -- sometimes that's the point (high-brow writin'). But you should consider the poor reader. After all, you want to be read and understood.

Sure, which is why I mentioned the exception. The whole point of the example is to show there are cases where the Oxford comma alone doesn’t prevent ambiguity in all cases. I’m not arguing that the Oxford comma is silly. I’m just explaining how the example can be ambiguous. Language is messy and wonderful and frustrating and fun!

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#66

Post by vidarh »

cryptonector wrote: post #58
tzs wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Good example. Without the Oxford comma, it is unambiguous because we know that the comma cannot be making an appositive phrase, because if it was that phrase would include "Ayn Rand and my daughter". We know that your mother cannot be your daughter, so that cannot be intended part of an appositive phrase. Note, though, that it is only unambiguous without the Oxford comma because we know that one's mother cannot be on…

I think you're quite right that mixing different separator uses of the same punctuation character is a source of ambiguity. This is where em-dashes and parentheticals shine. It's also a good idea to rephrase to avoid the ambiguity. E.g., To my mother, Ayn Rand; and also to my daughter, and God. or To my mother, to Ayn Rand, to my daughter, and to God. It's not always possible to just sprinkle a comma to disambiguate,…

When speaking, we will also often address it by changing intonation and shortening pauses to indicate that we're interjecting something rather than continuing a list. E.g. in this case adding pressure to "Ayn Rand" and shortening or cutting the pause implied by the first comma if we want to imply they're one and the same:

To my mother Ayn Rand, my daughter, and God.

And if we sense ambiguity we'll often similarly extend subsequent pauses to clearly separate list items.

We'll also often add body language to make the emphasis on connections even stronger.

I'm guessing a lot of ambiguous written lists are ambiguous because people have written the words roughly how they'd said them, and tried to follow grammar rules without thinking about the extra cues they're leaving out that'd be there if speaking.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#67

Post by pierrefar »

joeax wrote: post #55

As an author I laugh whenever I hear about the big debate over the Oxford comma. It's the literary equivalent to the big curly brace on the same vs next line. However, in this instance, as well as certain code scenarios in JavaScript, structuring it one way or another can affect the semantics. Like code, disambiguating my text is why I generally favor using the Oxford comma in my writing. Not using it is the equivale…

Speaking of commas, you're missing one after the end of the interrupting phrase in your last sentence (should say ", as well as the state of Maine,"). It's a pet peeve bigger than the lack of Oxford commas, and definitely affects readability and may affect meaning.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#68

Post by aaronbrethorst »

cryptonector wrote: post #60

Speaking of ambiguity: > (In most cases, The Times stylebook discourages the serial comma, often called the Oxford comma because it was traditionally used by the Oxford University Press.) Does the Times just not like styling ideas from the Oxford University Press, or is the name "Oxford comma" derived from its traditional use by the Oxford University Press, or both? What does the Times have against the Oxford Univers…

The Oxford comma is opposed by the NYT editors, Hitler and Stalin.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#69

Post by joeax »

pierrefar wrote: post #67
joeax wrote: post #55

As an author I laugh whenever I hear about the big debate over the Oxford comma. It's the literary equivalent to the big curly brace on the same vs next line. However, in this instance, as well as certain code scenarios in JavaScript, structuring it one way or another can affect the semantics. Like code, disambiguating my text is why I generally favor using the Oxford comma in my writing. Not using it is the equivale…

Speaking of commas, you're missing one after the end of the interrupting phrase in your last sentence (should say ", as well as the state of Maine,"). It's a pet peeve bigger than the lack of Oxford commas, and definitely affects readability and may affect meaning.

Ha ha thank you.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#70

Post by kevinmhickey »

patorjk wrote: post #14
kevinmhickey wrote: post #3

Feels like they could have made this even simpler by reordering the exemptions. For example: The distribution, canning, processing, preserving, freezing, drying, marketing, storing or packing for shipment of: I'm a fan of the Oxford comma and think it would still add clarity here. The semicolon solution is ham-fisted and unnecessary.

But doesn't that make "storing" ambiguous? It could mean "storing" of the 3 following categories, or "storing for shipment" of the 3 following categories.

Fair point. I suppose that means the Oxford comma is actually necessary in this case.
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