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Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

nytimes.com

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Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#51

Post by grzm »

drblast wrote: post #49
kspiteri wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter" is not ambiguous without the Oxford comma, but would be with it.

That seems ambiguous to me. Is the mother Ayn Rand or not? The presence of the Oxford comma, or lack thereof doesn't seem to affect the ambiguity.

> "To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter"

- Ayn Rand can't be in apposition of my mother as there's no comma setting Ayn Rand off from my daughter

- Similarly, Ayn Rand and my daughter are not in apposition

- my daughter and my mother are mutually exclusive

This is described in more detail here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma#Ambiguity

> "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and my daughter"

Adding the Oxford comma creates ambiguity between my mother and Ayn Rand, unless the speaker is Ayn Rand's daughter.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#52

Post by zdfjkhiuj »

kspiteri wrote: post #46
tzs wrote: post #33

Question: the Wikipedia article on this subject [1] gives this example as a case where including the comma would create ambiguity: To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God The ambiguity is that dedication could be read as a dedication to two entities: To , and or to three entities: To , , and I agree with that. However, isn't it also ambiguous WITHOUT the Oxford comma? It can be to three entities, same as with the comma: To ,…

"To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter" is not ambiguous without the Oxford comma, but would be with it.

Whether or not it's ambiguous doesn't matter much to me. It's confusing. That sentence is bad writing, Oxford comment or no. The goal of language is to understand others and be understood yourself. This kind of formal analysis doesn't help with that goal.

I think we would benefit from a simplified, formalized version of English for things like documentation and legalese. Does something like that already exist?

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#53

Post by tzs »

drblast wrote: post #49
kspiteri wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter" is not ambiguous without the Oxford comma, but would be with it.

That seems ambiguous to me. Is the mother Ayn Rand or not? The presence of the Oxford comma, or lack thereof doesn't seem to affect the ambiguity.

It only says the mother is Ayn Rand if the comma after mother is taken as making an appositive phrase. There is no later comma to end the appositive phrase, so we'd have to take "Ayn Rand and my daughter" and so it would be saying that his mother is both Ayn Rand and his daughter.

That's not possible so we can rule out the comma making an appositive phrase, and see that it must be a list comma, and we've got no ambiguity.

Putting in the Oxford comma makes it so we could interpret "My mother, Ayn Rand," as an appositive phrase, and we have ambiguity.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#54

Post by tzs »

kspiteri wrote: post #46
tzs wrote: post #33

Question: the Wikipedia article on this subject [1] gives this example as a case where including the comma would create ambiguity: To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God The ambiguity is that dedication could be read as a dedication to two entities: To , and or to three entities: To , , and I agree with that. However, isn't it also ambiguous WITHOUT the Oxford comma? It can be to three entities, same as with the comma: To ,…

"To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter" is not ambiguous without the Oxford comma, but would be with it.

Good example.

Without the Oxford comma, it is unambiguous because we know that the comma cannot be making an appositive phrase, because if it was that phrase would include "Ayn Rand and my daughter". We know that your mother cannot be your daughter, so that cannot be intended part of an appositive phrase.

Note, though, that it is only unambiguous without the Oxford comma because we know that one's mother cannot be one's daughter. So in some sense it actually is ambiguous grammatically but we can resolve the ambiguity by using knowledge beyond grammar. (I don't know if punctuation counts as grammar, but I'm counting it in this comment).

As with my examples, the ambiguity stems from comma being both a list separator and a separator for parts of appositive phrases.

If we were to write appositive phrases like I suggested (using parenthesis instead of commas), and always use the Oxford comma, it would become "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and my daughter" and would be grammatically unambiguous. We would not need to know the meaning of the words to parse it. We would only need to know their grammatical categories.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#55

Post by joeax »

As an author I laugh whenever I hear about the big debate over the Oxford comma. It's the literary equivalent to the big curly brace on the same vs next line. However, in this instance, as well as certain code scenarios in JavaScript, structuring it one way or another can affect the semantics.

Like code, disambiguating my text is why I generally favor using the Oxford comma in my writing. Not using it is the equivalent to not using parenthesis in a complex logical expression, and defaulting to known order of operations.

Say you want to express:

  Jane and Tom, Bill and Wendy, or Susie and Frank.
In code you would be unambiguous with:

  (Jane && Tom) || (Bill && Wendy) || (Susie && Frank)
So why omit the Oxford comma when it is necessary to disambiguate? It would have saved both parties, as well as the state of Maine a lot of time, money, and headache.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#56

Post by fshaun »

joeax wrote: post #55

As an author I laugh whenever I hear about the big debate over the Oxford comma. It's the literary equivalent to the big curly brace on the same vs next line. However, in this instance, as well as certain code scenarios in JavaScript, structuring it one way or another can affect the semantics. Like code, disambiguating my text is why I generally favor using the Oxford comma in my writing. Not using it is the equivale…

I agree re: favoring Oxford comma, but I don't think this reasoning supports it. Jane && Tom || Bill && Wendy || Susie && Frank is unambiguous in e.g. C++, as the language specifies operator precedence. The inclusion of parentheses is a question of style, not correctness. OTOH, omitting commas can rely on context and subjective reasoning.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#57

Post by jdeibele »

kspiteri wrote: post #46
tzs wrote: post #33

Question: the Wikipedia article on this subject [1] gives this example as a case where including the comma would create ambiguity: To my mother, Ayn Rand, and God The ambiguity is that dedication could be read as a dedication to two entities: To , and or to three entities: To , , and I agree with that. However, isn't it also ambiguous WITHOUT the Oxford comma? It can be to three entities, same as with the comma: To ,…

"To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter" is not ambiguous without the Oxford comma, but would be with it.

Why not just rewrite it to

"To my mother, my daughter, and Ayn Rand" or

"To my mother, my daughter and Ayn Rand".

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#58

Post by cryptonector »

tzs wrote: post #54
kspiteri wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter" is not ambiguous without the Oxford comma, but would be with it.

Good example. Without the Oxford comma, it is unambiguous because we know that the comma cannot be making an appositive phrase, because if it was that phrase would include "Ayn Rand and my daughter". We know that your mother cannot be your daughter, so that cannot be intended part of an appositive phrase. Note, though, that it is only unambiguous without the Oxford comma because we know that one's mother cannot be on…

I think you're quite right that mixing different separator uses of the same punctuation character is a source of ambiguity. This is where em-dashes and parentheticals shine.

It's also a good idea to rephrase to avoid the ambiguity. E.g.,

    To my mother, Ayn Rand; and also to my daughter, and God.
or

    To my mother, to Ayn Rand, to my daughter, and to God.
It's not always possible to just sprinkle a comma to disambiguate, so don't just do that. Use other punctuation. Add punctuation diversity to your writing -- make it clearer and more fun for you to write, and others to read.

The trick is to notice these issues as you write. Of course, that's not always easy, and it's particularly difficult when speaking, but at least it's not usually expected when speaking.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#59

Post by cryptonector »

grzm wrote: post #51
drblast wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That seems ambiguous to me. Is the mother Ayn Rand or not? The presence of the Oxford comma, or lack thereof doesn't seem to affect the ambiguity.

> "To my mother, Ayn Rand and my daughter" - Ayn Rand can't be in apposition of my mother as there's no comma setting Ayn Rand off from my daughter - Similarly, Ayn Rand and my daughter are not in apposition - my daughter and my mother are mutually exclusive This is described in more detail here: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Serial_comma#Ambiguity > "To my mother, Ayn Rand, and my daughter" Adding the Oxford comma c…

But here we're using semantics to disambiguate. It works, sure, but it works in fewer cases than punctuating/rephrasing to avoid the ambiguity grammatically rather than semantically.

Semantic disambiguation also imposes a higher cognitive load on the reader -- sometimes that's the point (high-brow writin'). But you should consider the poor reader. After all, you want to be read and understood.

Re: Oxford Comma Dispute Is Settled as Maine Drivers Get $5M

#60

Post by cryptonector »

Speaking of ambiguity:

> (In most cases, The Times stylebook discourages the serial comma, often called the Oxford comma because it was traditionally used by the Oxford University Press.)

Does the Times just not like styling ideas from the Oxford University Press, or is the name "Oxford comma" derived from its traditional use by the Oxford University Press, or both?

What does the Times have against the Oxford University Press, or the Oxford comma, anyways?

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