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Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

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Re: Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

#61

Post by not_good_hirer »

moate wrote: post #20
ganonm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more about simply having an awareness of algorithmic complexity. I'm talking about writing a doubly nested 'for' loop and being able to realise that you've just written an O(N^2) algorithm if you're iterating over the original collection again. This sort of stuff is blindingly obvious to experienced programmers but for bootcamp grads who haven't built up that intuition, a short course on Big O notation e…

Or, since you're hiring Junior devs, someone could like, take 10 minutes to explain why what they did is wrong and point them towards some resource to help them get on the right track. This whole thing is part of the circular logic problem with hiring: you have people making these hiring decisions that aren't trained in hiring, so they just go with "what makes sense to them" or hiring a younger version of someone who…

Do you have any resources would you recommend for becoming better at hiring? It's an area I think I definitely have room for improvement in

Re: Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

#62

Post by jpzisme »

starpilot wrote: post #47
jpzisme wrote: post #40

I'm a bootcamp grad and am about to finish my first year as a dev at a well-known, medium size start-up in San Francisco. The advice the author gives is spot on. Taking the time after finishing the program, working through multiple algo textbooks, and taking an online course on data structures and algorithms definitely helped seal the deal. To those deriding bootcamps, you are missing out on lots of great developers.…

Which online course on data structures and algorithms did you take?

Stanford one on Coursera -> https://www.coursera.org/specializations/algorithms

Re: Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

#64

Post by jamestimmins »

edmundhuber wrote: post #39
jamestimmins wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you expand on what you mean by "They didn't have anything on their resume that wasn't from the bootcamp, and even that was horrible."? Do you mean the projects they built, or the list of courses they've taken?

Like the top comment I have passed on many bootcamp graduates, and many of my colleagues have too. I can only think of one bootcamp graduate that was ever hired at any org I worked at. When we look at an application/resume from a bootcamp grad, it tends to only contain: "this is what I was doing before", "this is the bootcamp I went to and the projects we did there" (sometimes, these are cleverly formatted to appear…

Ah ok, that makes sense, thanks for the info. I can see how only having a bootcamp and an unrelated background gives just a single data point to work with, which even then isn't very illuminating.

Re: Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

#65

Post by thebiglebrewski »

emsy wrote: post #10
foroak wrote: post #8

After going through a web dev bootcamp myself where we actually devoted a decent amount of time to algorithms and their time/space complexity -- this has been the thing I have used the least in my professional career.

Maybe your not working on professional things? Also what is a decent ammount of time?

pro·fes·sion·al prəˈfeSH(ə)n(ə)l/Submit adjective 1. relating to or connected with a profession.

What do you mean by, "not working on professional things"? Seems a bit insulting to me?

Re: Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

#66

Post by emsy »

thebiglebrewski wrote: post #65
emsy wrote: post #10

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Maybe your not working on professional things? Also what is a decent ammount of time?

pro·fes·sion·al prəˈfeSH(ə)n(ə)l/Submit adjective 1. relating to or connected with a profession. What do you mean by, "not working on professional things"? Seems a bit insulting to me?

It's not meant as an insult. I meant professional as in >characterized by or conforming to the technical or ethical standards of a profession. In Germany we use the word to express sophistication and technical expertise.

If you don't know how to handle algorithmic complexity it's less likely you will take a job that demands knowing much about it, but that doesn't mean it's not professionally needed.

Re: Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

#67

Post by philwelch »

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #59
philwelch wrote: post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yeah, I thought we were talking about hiring people who had gaps in their basic CS knowledge and then training them.

As long as they were otherwise able to contribute to the team, which is what should have been found out in the interview. That's what the boot camps are selling. The gaps in CS knowledge were what the article is saying was one of, if not the, deciding factor in choosing a CS grad over a boot camp grad.

Which is a different role. And if it were treated and paid as a different role, and there was an acknowledgement that a coding boot camp graduate without deep CS knowledge could develop into a real software engineer some day but they weren’t one yet, then I would agree with you. But if the role and salary is that of a full-fledged software engineer, understanding CS is a basic qualification.

Re: Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

#68

Post by t0mbstone »

I've been doing full stack web programming and server administration for the past 20 years, and I almost never encounter "Big O" notation and algorithm problem solving except in interviews.

99% of the things I have built in the past (and continue to build on a daily basis) consist of just gluing things like APIs together, or building user interfaces that essentially just allow users to display and modify data in various databases.

I've had to learn tools like Docker, Git, Travis, Ansible, and Kubernetes. I've had to be able to learn the basics of languages like Javascript and Python and Ruby in a matter of months or even weeks. I've had to pick up frameworks like Angular and React and whatever new shiny thing exists, at the drop of a hat.

I have built large web-based software projects that power multi-million dollar companies, and that handle millions of users on a daily basis.

I don't have a college degree, and my knowledge of advanced math ends at Algebra. But that didn't stop me from assembling and launching a machine learning platform for the company I work for.

But yeah. I don't know shit about algorithms or your "Big O" that you love so dearly and love to judge every "programmer" by.

Re: Advice for Coding Bootcamp Graduates

#69

Post by mnm1 »

moate wrote: post #20
ganonm wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it's more about simply having an awareness of algorithmic complexity. I'm talking about writing a doubly nested 'for' loop and being able to realise that you've just written an O(N^2) algorithm if you're iterating over the original collection again. This sort of stuff is blindingly obvious to experienced programmers but for bootcamp grads who haven't built up that intuition, a short course on Big O notation e…

Or, since you're hiring Junior devs, someone could like, take 10 minutes to explain why what they did is wrong and point them towards some resource to help them get on the right track. This whole thing is part of the circular logic problem with hiring: you have people making these hiring decisions that aren't trained in hiring, so they just go with "what makes sense to them" or hiring a younger version of someone who…

Damn straight. 100% of stupid whiteboard coding questions could easily be solved with taking 10 minutes to google / explain the solution. So why are these stupidities even asked? In other words, the author is incompetent and shouldn't be in charge of hiring. He won't hire someone because he won't take 10 fucking minutes to explain to them something beyond simple (although if you explain it in big O terms, it's not simple). That's a manager who is in the wrong job.
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