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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

danluu.com

481–490 of 584 posts

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>I actually find the situation you outlined extremely fair and would find it quite unfair to apply different funding principals to different schools based on demographics. But that "fair" method isn't independent of demographic. And that's what privilege tries to highlight. It's almost always possible to dress up policies that are de-facto prejudicial as independent of the thing that they're supposedly prejudiced aga…

> I'm curious if you favor a progressive tax system I favor a flat tax if we must pay tax at all. > The crux of this is that while you may disagree, its possible, and even perhaps likely, that your success is less "yours" than you believe, and that your mind is rewriting history, so to speak, to make you feel more in control of your outcomes than you actually were. This is by no means your fault or anything, and ther…

>This is the crux of why I think the concept of privilege is extremely dangerous. You have no idea who I am and I've already stated that I fit some of the demographics that you deem underprivileged. Yet instead of listening to what I had to say (which is a quite simple explanation -- work smart/hard == do good) you fit a very elaborate psychological explanation over my experiences (of which you know nothing about).

It doesn't really matter who you are, it's unlikely that you're immune to bias. I absolutely listened to what you said, it's just orthogonal to the point I made, which is that no matter your experience, how your brain works is probably not unique. You're almost certainly subject to the psychological quirks as everyone else. Do you want me to give your experiences special deference because you come from an underprivileged background? I thought that's explicitly what you were arguing against.

>Do you believe that poor people cannot succeed without help? If the answer is yes, then why would you question someone telling you that's what happened? If the answer is no, then I think you need to reexamine your philosophy as it's fairly dehumanizing to be told that you're not capable of success.

No. And I don't think I've ever said that poor people cannot succeed without help. I've said it's more difficult for poor people to achieve the same success as rich people, all else equal, but I don't see anything dehumanizing about that. I'd ask that you take another look at what I'm actually saying, because you're turning my words into something that they very much aren't.

>Poor people who became wealthy are told they're experience is invalid, an outlier, not useful. Really shouldn't they (we) be the ones that have the most valuable opinion since we've proven it can work?

No. Not at all! For the same reason that I wouldn't ask Jeff Bezos for life advice. Its survivorship bias, plain and simple. For every person with your story, there's someone else who had a similar background, worked just as hard, and isn't successful.

The common explanation for this is that a lot of successful people say that a good things is to take risks. They all have this in common. They took risks. But so did tons of other people who ended up broke or bankrupt or otherwise unsuccessful. Only listening to successful people will result in exactly what you're doing now: thinking that [hard work/risk taking/keeping a strict schedule/buddhist minimalism] is enough to do succeed, ignoring the fact that there are many people who did exactly the same thing who have failed.

Just to be clear, are you arguing that you worked harder/smarter than every person from your hometown who has seen less success than you? Because I'd find that highly unlikely. It certainly wasn't true for me.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#482

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you…

> Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you have been keeping your knowledge up-to-date because the answer in 2018 is v…

> and still succeeded massively and then had the money to pour into cleaning up the resulting messes.

And they typically have to pay enormous sums of money to hire the talent required to clean up.

This is large part helps create the bimodal compensation model.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#483
post #29

As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it. In our educational system the increase in short-length programming classes at academy level has exploded and I doubt the market will keep up. Really great comp science or engineering students won’t ever have a problem, but I fully expect the short-length, autodidact or mediocre students to be entering a saturated market within the next f…

As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it. That is the dirty little secret of our industry. You need to do your day job AND on your own time, keep your skills up to date, and/or work on open source and/or write a blog or something. There was a post on there the other day on how keeping up to date with k8s is a full-time job in and of itself, well you need to do that - and a bunch…

Outside of the SV bubble, the (entirely subjective) impression that I get is that there is much less bleeding-edge/buzzword-based hiring. There's still a fair amount, especially at medium- or small-sized B2B/sales-driven companies without engineering involvement in hiring, but it's much less epidemic.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#485
post #141

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees What does that have to do with what you should be paid? My degree has provided a small and consistent boost over my career. It didn't make me significantly more valuable as a new starter. I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials. In the time it took you to gain four degrees an American dev could have gained 6-8 years of experience and…

> What does that have to do with what you should be paid? I would expect that my effort would have at least some positive effect on my starter's income. > I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials. I think so too. At my work I am doing similar stuff as when I started programming at 12. The main difference is that I had significantly more enthusiasm and energy back then. I did learn a lot…

> I would expect that my effort would have at least some positive effect on my starter's income.

> At my work I am doing similar stuff as when I started programming at 12

Given the second comment I'm surprised that you have that expectation and I think it's heavily influenced by your culture.

In the states we don't care about effort at all. We care about outcome.

I think this leads to a huge number of efficiency gains.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#486

Hypothesis: there aren't two clearly differently skilled populations of programmers . There are two different populations of companies that are willing to pay different amounts. Lower pay being at startups and large non-technology companies in lower-cost-of-living markets; high being at the big prestigious tech firms, banks, and the like.

Yeah, I'm kind of disappointed to see this interpretation so far down. Bimodal compensation probably says more about corporations than it does about innate skill issues.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you…

> Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you have been keeping your knowledge up-to-date because the answer in 2018 is v…

I don't think the problem with programming is that it is complex or has wast domain knowledge, it is true, but this is not a unique problem.

I think the biggest barrier in programming is just how abstract and alien it is, cognitive load can be enormous. Try to teach engineer about materials or steel liquation or semiconductors - it might be abstract or complex but at least it is dealing with real life physical processes.

With programming it is whole different galaxy. Like explaining pointer arithmetic to someone who just started learning CS. Or recursion, or asking someone to rotate tree in their head - there is a huge chance it will simply BSOD them. Programming is much more close to theoretical physics or maths than engineering.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#489

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hear you; I'm only a hobbyist programmer myself. I worked in investment banking at the beginning of my career and did an MBA so know lots of consultants and work a lot with lawyers in my work at startups, and I know those can be grueling jobs and that most people don't make nearly as much as the lucky few at the top firms I was referring more to the intellectual challenge of the work. In investment banking there is…

>I'm only a hobbyist programmer myself. There's also a very important point to be made here. Large-scale software development and self-directed programming have very, very little overlap in terms of time allocation and mental effort. To exaggerate the difference somewhat, it is like comparing building a go-kart in your garage with designing a factory that produces commercial, road-ready cars.

I tried to make that point in the post, though I don't have experience building large scale software. If hobby programming is building a go kart in your garage then the analysis you do in banking is like playing Mario kart :)

There's a huge jump in intellectual challenge of hobby programming vs the analysis you do in investment banking, and I'm sure there's another huge jump between hobby programming and large scale swe. Though I don't know which jump is harder. And I'd imagine that designing the factory in your analogy probably is the work of very experienced engineers, and jr eng is probably more like designing and building the machine that attaches all the wheels as part of a massively complex automated system

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#490

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is true. I recently applied for a job in the US and one in the UK. In the US, I got a ridiculously good salary offer. The UK job's compensation was maybe half what the US job offered. My cost of living is also lower than the folks in London, so it's just perverse no matter how you slice it. I honestly don't think it will last, though. Economically, it just doesn't make sense. My recommendation to any of my fello…

To be honest, I think if anything the trend will continue and the salaries will go up. There will still be a shortage of highly skilled developers who demand higher salaries. At my company we've been trying to hire a senior frontend developer for the last 6 months; it's hard, especially outside of major tech areas. Most people come unprepared, lie in their resumes, and suffer intensely from the Dunning Kruger effect.…

I disagree, but time will tell. I think that at some point companies will realize that it's 2018 and remote work is a (mostly) solved problem. Once that realization hits, the high salaries are going.

I've worked remotely for the past 3 years. If you're open to remote work, the challenge isn't finding qualified employees. The challenge is turning off the firehose of qualified applicants once you post a job listing.

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