Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017) • Hacker News Board

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#31

Post by westiseast » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:27 PM UTC

jotm wrote: post #25

westiseast wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s mistaken (and somewhat sad!) to take a cynical attitude like that given the implications of the research. The most exciting part of these type of studies is the ability to take depressive people and ‘kick’ them out of the cognitive ruts they are in. Those cognitive ruts are often world-views, thought structures and learned behaviours from childhood or their parents which constantly reinforce that the sufferer is…

Wait, so the idea is to see other people for "who they are"... but they won't do the same. It sure can "restore faith in humanity" and yourself, but what happens when you get hit with a dose of reality? That everyone struggles... individually. And most people don't actually care about you. Back to depression it is?

> And most people don’t actually care about you

Well... yeah. I mean, imagine you had super critical parents who picked on your every mistake as a child. Now you suffer from social anxiety and feel intense shame and fear in public because you think everyone is constantly criticizing you and talking about you.

Being able to relax and be yourself knowing that most people won’t care either way is a huge step forward.

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#32

Post by drvdevd » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

TrainedMonkey wrote: post #7

ghostbrainalpha wrote: post #4

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Suggested Title: Study with small sample size suggests that brief drug-induced mystical experiences change people over time, leading them to report better moods, heightened altruism and forgiveness, more closeness with others, and a sense of connection six months later

Too long, how about "Scientist report psychoactive drugs leading to long term positive effects".

In this case it should say “psilocybin” (as it now does) as there are very particular (IMO significant) differences in its’ effects as compared to other 5ht2* agonists, such as LSD. For example it typically has about 1/4 to 1/2 the duration of LSD which is therapeutically significant.

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#33

Post by nugga » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:39 PM UTC

jotm wrote: post #9

I can show you the self is not an illusion - ask those people to give you all of their possessions to someone else, the poor or some charity. Suddenly, they'll care about their well being above others and their eternal connection to everyone else is shattered.

You are not your thoughts. What is meant by the self being an illusion is that there is no thinker behind your thoughts, no entity in your brain that is the 'you'. Most people do not even realize they are constantly submerged in thought and/or dialogue with their 'inner voice'. That is not the real you though.

If you've suffered some mental problems you can even have multiple thoughts in your conscious scope at once or thoughts whirling past so fast you can barely make out what their contents are. You may not even want to think or like these thoughts. Some traumatized people are affected by what they describe as intrusive thoughts that have so much momentum or energy that they greatly modify their consciousness and behavior and emotions, for example cause depression.

The false ego is a tough nut to crack because it has so much invested in thinking it is real and acting out whatever. Whatever the consciousness or your brain or body experiences as you is an accumulation of traits, thought patterns, reactions all layered up to form a somewhat consistent/cohesive/continuous experience.

If you have the drive to look behind the curtain or are interested in altered states of consciousness, you can experience these insights into the nature of consciousness by prolonged daily meditation practice, with or without psychedelics. Eventually with enough awareness you may be able to simply 'step outside' of thoughts or witness thoughts happening and see as they pass through your consciousness without being involved in or affected by them.

Despite all this, you may still want to put that body before someone else and that may be totally ok.

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#34

Post by drvdevd » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:51 PM UTC

jotm wrote: post #25

westiseast wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s mistaken (and somewhat sad!) to take a cynical attitude like that given the implications of the research. The most exciting part of these type of studies is the ability to take depressive people and ‘kick’ them out of the cognitive ruts they are in. Those cognitive ruts are often world-views, thought structures and learned behaviours from childhood or their parents which constantly reinforce that the sufferer is…

Wait, so the idea is to see other people for "who they are"... but they won't do the same. It sure can "restore faith in humanity" and yourself, but what happens when you get hit with a dose of reality? That everyone struggles... individually. And most people don't actually care about you. Back to depression it is?

It’s been speculated by researchers that the therapeutic effects we are seeing may in fact be due to a physical change - specifically potent anti-inflammatory effects of 5ht-2a agonists, though this has been confirmed more for other psychedelic drugs such as DOI, at non-psychoactive dosages (and in rats) [1].

Hence the psychological narrative may be backed by an actual psychiatric, physiochemical change. An actual change, in “reality” - in other words, assuming some form of inflammation is involved in most depressive states...

[1] DOI: 10.1371/journal.pone.0075426

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#35

Post by nabla9 » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:57 PM UTC

kup0 wrote: post #27

nabla9 wrote: post #15

>The Tibetan Zen Buddhist monk Chogyam Trongpa It's written Chögyam Trungpa. Trungpa was Vajrayana school Buddhist. "Tibetan Zen Buddhism" does not exist. I'm sure there are individual Tibetans who are Zen Buddhists, but there is no Zen tradition in Tibet. Trungpa was also alcoholic, womanizer, sexually abused his students, cocaine user, ... and was able to get away with it because it was all 'crazy wisdom'. Zen and…

What do you think of this proposal that, at least for a short time, there indeed was what could be considered Tibetan Zen? https://tricycle.org/magazine/lost-tradition-tibetan-zen/

It's certainly possible both geographically and historically.

There is also 'cross pollination' across history when teachers learn from other traditions and sometimes very similar styles are developed independently. For example, Trekcho practice in Dzogchen is very similar to Zen training of shikantaza or 'silent illumination'. On the other hand it's very fundamental practice just like following the breath, so it can be traced back to the beginning of Buddhism.

Jnana-vichara (self-enquiry method) taught by hindu guru Bhagavan Sri Ramana Maharshi is very similar to Zen koan practice. The question of "Who am I" is often used as first koan in Zen.

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#36

Post by pmoriarty » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 9:59 PM UTC

This reminds me of the "Marsh Chapel Experiment" (aka the "Good Friday Experiment") from 1962:

"Prior to the Good Friday service, graduate degree divinity student volunteers from the Boston area were randomly divided into two groups. In a double-blind experiment, half of the students received psilocybin, while a control group received a large dose of niacin. Niacin produces clear physiological changes and thus was used as an active placebo... Almost all of the members of the experimental group reported experiencing profound religious experiences, providing empirical support for the notion that psychedelic drugs can facilitate religious experiences..."[1]

Much more detail here: [2]

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marsh_Chapel_Experiment

[2] - https://www.erowid.org/plants/mushrooms/mushrooms_journal2.s...

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#37

Post by monktastic1 » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 10:13 PM UTC

nugga wrote: post #33

jotm wrote: post #9

I can show you the self is not an illusion - ask those people to give you all of their possessions to someone else, the poor or some charity. Suddenly, they'll care about their well being above others and their eternal connection to everyone else is shattered.

You are not your thoughts. What is meant by the self being an illusion is that there is no thinker behind your thoughts, no entity in your brain that is the 'you'. Most people do not even realize they are constantly submerged in thought and/or dialogue with their 'inner voice'. That is not the real you though. If you've suffered some mental problems you can even have multiple thoughts in your conscious scope at once…

Nice summary. As another poster points out in this thread, this "witnessing" phase is not yet the fully Monty, nor is even the unitive consciousness phase that can come after that. The full non-self experience is beyond the no-ego experience.

Which all probably sounds like mumbo-jumbo to someone who hasn't traveled the path.

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#38

Post by hosh » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 10:20 PM UTC

nabla9 wrote: post #21

hosh wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Chris Wallis, author of Tantra Illuminated had written to clarify what makes someone a "tantric master", specifically, one is a master of self . I think that is a useful distinction when you are searching for guidance. Another way to look at it is something I've heard Adyashanti (another teacher) spoke about in an interview on batgap.com -- someone's relationship with their teacher is often a reflection of of their r…

There is whole Tibetan sutra with instructions of how to have sex with prepubescent girls. After their first menstrual cycle they become impure and don't help monk in his spiritual journey. If you have religion and status, you can always find ways to rationalize fucking around as spiritual development. I have respect for Buddhism in general and I have practiced meditation with a teacher 20 years. I understand the nee…

There is also a whole Tibetan teaching that evolved from ritual cannabilism that shares its roots with practices from India. That particular teaching evolved to use visualizations, and the one being offered for sacrifice in those visualization is the practitioner and not someone else. When done that way, it's an extreme, but beautiful teaching relating to impermanence and the Bodhisattva ideal. The lotus growing from the mud -- and that mud is very muddy.

I don't think people outside realize just how dark of a place the Tibetan people came from before the Buddhist Vajrayana practitioners came in to "tame" the land gods of Tibet. There was a monastic order that attempted to bring the Dharma (with the Tibetan king's blessing) and were hounded out. The last monk that left told the king, he needed to bring one of the Vajrayana people. The level of intensity of the dark and negative stuff was just that bad.

There had always been and likely, always will be the Guru syndrome. Even sincere teachers getting themselves trapped by that. (And that was one of my few favorite parts of the Last Jedi). It is as much as the failings of the guru as it is people seeking for something projecting all sorts of idealizations and failings onto their teachers. It doesn't matter whether it is Tibetan or not. This happens with any religion or spiritual path.

One last note, something I heard from several teachers: you can be awakened and still be an ass. You would just be very clear, realized ass.

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#39

Post by rosser » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 10:50 PM UTC

jotm wrote: post #25

westiseast wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s mistaken (and somewhat sad!) to take a cynical attitude like that given the implications of the research. The most exciting part of these type of studies is the ability to take depressive people and ‘kick’ them out of the cognitive ruts they are in. Those cognitive ruts are often world-views, thought structures and learned behaviours from childhood or their parents which constantly reinforce that the sufferer is…

Wait, so the idea is to see other people for "who they are"... but they won't do the same. It sure can "restore faith in humanity" and yourself, but what happens when you get hit with a dose of reality? That everyone struggles... individually. And most people don't actually care about you. Back to depression it is?

> Back to depression it is?

For some people, I suppose.

For others, a non-trivial point of the work is to learn not to care that other people don't care. It's about improving yourself, changing the relationship you have with the only person you will always be with, regardless of what other people might say, think, or do — that their behavior is entirely about them and has nothing whatsoever to do with you.

And that trying to make their behavior about you is just as much an ego-trap as the more obvious things you'd associate with that notion.

It's pretty remarkable the degree to which a little compassion and self-awareness can take the sting out of other people's lacking those things.

Re: Researchers giving psilocybin to religious leaders (2017)

#40

Post by yters » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 11:04 PM UTC

hosh wrote: post #38

nabla9 wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is whole Tibetan sutra with instructions of how to have sex with prepubescent girls. After their first menstrual cycle they become impure and don't help monk in his spiritual journey. If you have religion and status, you can always find ways to rationalize fucking around as spiritual development. I have respect for Buddhism in general and I have practiced meditation with a teacher 20 years. I understand the nee…

There is also a whole Tibetan teaching that evolved from ritual cannabilism that shares its roots with practices from India. That particular teaching evolved to use visualizations, and the one being offered for sacrifice in those visualization is the practitioner and not someone else. When done that way, it's an extreme, but beautiful teaching relating to impermanence and the Bodhisattva ideal. The lotus growing from…

Have you ever been to a Tibetan temple? The walls are filled with detailed, vivid drawings of their "masters" doing horrific things to them.