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Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

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Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#21
post #7

I'm still curious about what are alternatives to using money. Surely there might be politics and some philosophy involved about how you manage and organize society. Aren't local currencies a part of the solution? Money is great because it lets individuals manage their own selves, but I'm still a little worried about how fraud, abuse and mismanagement can wreak havoc in society when money is abused. Regulating money a…

That's pretty much all they do.

Adam Smith's Wealth of Nations was the first, I guess. It specifically challenges mercantilism, which is the British policy described in the intro to this article.

Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#22
post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"I think it has less impact unless you studied/read a little classic economics." I suspect that most people would repeat the claim that the chain of events was barter leading to coinage of some sort. Debunking that on its own is interesting. Other interesting ideas are: * that in order to manage debt there needs to be (as there was historically) regular corrections to whatever debt system is in operation (the jubilee…

Revolutionary as in the "different from conventional" rather than "en route to revolution." I guess my choice of words was poor for this case. :) It's not just educated, but also interested. For two reasons.. the first is that a nuanced change to the origin of money narrative is not really interesting in itself, without the context. 2nd, because the really interesting implications (imo) come from merging the barter a…

To your comment on borrowing bitcoin, a few exchanges are selling futures, which you can short. This started relatively recently - December.

Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#23
post #20

I thought Niall Ferguson's The Ascent of Money to be an informative book the history of money if you're looking for more topical reading. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ascent_of_Money

I would recommend watching the documentary instead as it is the same content, but nicely summarized. I only discovered the documentary after reading the book however.

Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#24
post #20

I thought Niall Ferguson's The Ascent of Money to be an informative book the history of money if you're looking for more topical reading. > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Ascent_of_Money

I would recommend watching the documentary instead as it is the same content, but nicely summarized. I only discovered the documentary after reading the book however.

(Good call; I haven't watched the documentary. I'll check it out ;))

Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#25

The author of the main article is Nick Szabo, who some theorize as the most likely candidate for being Satoshi Nakamoto. Szabo developed an early cryptocurrency called Bit Gold, which was never implemented, but has been called "a direct precursor to the Bitcoin architecture.". https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nick_Szabo Was there a reason this comment was flagged? It seemed very relevant given the topic and recent trend…

>>It's essentially a penny stock deception, where the early users who generated the coins for low cost, or free, control the majority of the supply to manipulate the market spot price and than launch marketing campaigns and propaganda in an attempt to convince the uninformed public to buy their software coins. While I welcome a debate on the public welfare effects of cryptocurrencies vs fiat, and disagree with your b…

The distribution of cryptocurrency and unfair access to minting and production of what's claimed and marketed as currency is completely relevant given the subject of the paper.

The math behind Bitcoin or altcoins reveals a system that grants production of the supply to a minority which worsens with time. New users aware of the game theory behind the math know it's not worth buying or mining. Of course, one can gamble on an irrational market or the other users who lack understanding of the mechanics.

Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I've made that recommendation, with mixed results. I think it has less impact unless you studied/read a little classic economics. Most economics "schools" start from a standard Smithian narrative for the invention of money. Spot traded goods, durable goods as values stores and eventually some sort of money. The money supply narrative is completely separate. It's explained via the "money multiplier" effect, which turn…

Yeah, the biggest value in the the "history of debt" is the unlearning and debunking myths that are taught as 'science' in economics schools. There were no 'barter' economies, money did not 'evolve' from barter etc. Even otherwise respectable names in economics built their theories on top of these ideas which are in fact pure, convenient fantasy.

so much this, and it's repeated over and over ...and over in the book.

Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#27
post #22

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Revolutionary as in the "different from conventional" rather than "en route to revolution." I guess my choice of words was poor for this case. :) It's not just educated, but also interested. For two reasons.. the first is that a nuanced change to the origin of money narrative is not really interesting in itself, without the context. 2nd, because the really interesting implications (imo) come from merging the barter a…

To your comment on borrowing bitcoin, a few exchanges are selling futures, which you can short. This started relatively recently - December.

Well there you go. Does that count as debt though? Money and bitcoin would be exchanged simultaneously so no one ever owes anyone anything. I guess futures are an "obligation"...

Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#28
post #7

I'm still curious about what are alternatives to using money. Surely there might be politics and some philosophy involved about how you manage and organize society. Aren't local currencies a part of the solution? Money is great because it lets individuals manage their own selves, but I'm still a little worried about how fraud, abuse and mismanagement can wreak havoc in society when money is abused. Regulating money a…

> Money is great because it lets individuals manage their own selves, but I'm still a little worried about how fraud, abuse and mismanagement can wreak havoc in society when money is abused.

So we need an alternative to money because of problems that we know about and manage rather well? (And yes, we do manage them rather well. You might be traumatized by the 2008 crisis and think "omg money is evil", but you'd be missing the big picture of all of the improvement in standard of living across the board and around the world since the Renaissance that has been made possible chiefly by having money and credit.)

Anyways, there are no alternatives to money (and credit). The only alternative is barter, and that's extremely inefficient.

If you want efficient trade in services and products then you need a money-like measure of value that stores value in itself for at least the short-term, meaning: for long enough that people are willing to use that money-like measure for trade. Such a thing is money.

Not having money and credit means reverting to a state we were in centuries ago because without it there is no way to leverage barter into the kinds of trades we do today on a daily basis.

Money without credit is not that good either. That's basically what we had in, say, the Roman empire days -- not exactly fantastic.

Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#29

I highly recommend that people read "Debt: The First 5,000 years" by David Graeber which is a fascinating and erudite exploration of the development of money.

This is my favorite book ever. However, another commenter mentioned that having studied classical economics a bit is an important precursor to really understanding this book— I agree with that assessment.

Re: Shelling Out: The Origins of Money (2002)

#30
post #6

Obligatory reminder that money != coinage != barter != banking

Hm. I have to say I think this isn't quite right. I guess it is, strictly speaking, true that these concepts are "!=". However, I think that the vast, vast majority of people err on the side of thinking that they're far more separate than they actually are. Money, coinage, banking, and debt (I'm ignoring barter here and adding debt) are so intimately related that, really, none of them exist in anything resembling their current iterations without all the others. And talking about "money" in the sense of exclusively a medium of exchange is really hard for people these days to wrap their heads around...none of us have had any experience with such a thing whatsoever.

All that said, I'd be curious to hear you expand on your original comment. How are you defining each of these things? What are you trying to say by noting that they're not equal? What are the implications?

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