Is developer compensation becoming bimodal? • Hacker News Board

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#321

Post by seanmcdirmid » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:31 PM UTC

mattferderer wrote: post #170

rossdavidh wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In Electrical Engineering, which the article often mentions as a counterexample, the 10-year veteran is not nearly as likely to drop out of the profession. Programming has a constant bleed-out of people who learning how to program, became veterans, and then were dismayed to discover that they were going to have to do it all over again, because the libraries, frameworks, languages, etc. were different. Some just do it…

In my experience, while there is a new library/framework/language every day, most of them aren't introducing brand new concepts that the developer has to worry about. A lot of the patterns they implement are also common in other language/frameworks. Nothing against React, but every other day someone posts a new concept that is very similar to a pattern that has existed for years. Edit: I should note, on the last sent…

React is interesting. It takes something that we started out with, immediate-mode style UI programming, and brings it to something we have now, retained-mode UI (i.e. the DOM). History in our field loops...a lot.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#322

Post by giobox » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

namelost wrote: post #158

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

If you want to know just how hard programming is, try teaching it to someone. Programmers have to remember a vast amount of domain knowledge. Consider the basic task of choosing where you are going to store some data, well first you need to know which options exist and there's dozens of them (do you want Postgres, SQLite, Redis, LevelDB, ..?). Then you need to know the strengths and weaknesses of each. And I hope you…

> There are "law schools" and "med schools" to teach you all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor.

Programmer now, gained a law degree in a previous life. Know lots of folks who studied medicine.

The idea that med school or law school teach you "all the knowledge required to become a lawyer or a doctor" is laughable and a truly absurd statement. The sheer size of the problem domains these subjects cover alone renders this impossible, and furthermore I'd argue it's pretty insulting to insinuate that Computer Science is somehow more difficult in this regard.

While I can't speak fully for medics, a law degree "hardly scratches the surface" as you put it either.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#323

Post by expertentipp » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:32 PM UTC

myth_drannon wrote: post #151

xya3453 wrote: post #136

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Europe does not value software or developers anywhere near the levels the US does. Other developed economies e.g, Australia, Canada and Singapore are closer to the US but still trail behind.

In Canada developers are valued for the same reason doctors are valued. If the pay is not good we can just move south of the border. In Europe you don't have that option and actually you always have the threat the company will just hire people in Eastern Europe which are in close proximity.

> people in Eastern Europe which are in close proximity.

We are such a cheap whores it hurts each time I look for a job in my home region. Sentenced for emigration.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#324

Post by potta_coffee » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:33 PM UTC

galieos_ghost wrote: post #211

ForHackernews wrote: post #189

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you did absolutely nothing to earn having good family members? Most people feel at least sheepish about their own success when faced with others, no less deserving, who experience failure.

The point is that millions of people made sacrifices for themselves and their families which cumulatively created the greatest civilization in history. Why should we feel guilty about reaping the benefits of those sacrifices? Why should we feel obligated to hand over our prosperity to those who contributed nothing to it?

You shouldn't feel guilty. The Privilege argument is a way for people to feel like victims instead of taking responsibility for their own destiny. Life is unfair and it's quite impossible to accurately distinguish all the ways life has been unfair to all the different people. Is a white person's privilege balanced out because they are a cripple? There's not scientific metric to measure any of this, it's the new moral fashion an nothing else.

Bring on the downvotes, I don't give a shit.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#325

Post by digikata » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:34 PM UTC

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

There is one point where the article asks why programmers seem to get compensated well compared to other professions.

> The second most common comment that I hear is that, of course programmers are well paid, software companies are worth so much, which makes it inevitable. But there’s nothing inevitable about workers actually being well compensated because a company is profitable. If we look at this list of the most profitable companies per employee, we see companies that pay well, like Alphabet (Google) and Facebook, but we also see hardware companies like Qualcomm, Cisco, TSMC (and arguably ARM now that they’ve been acquired by SoftBank) that don’t even pay as well software companies that don’t turn a profit, and that the compensation between the software companies that are listed isn’t very strongly related to their profit per employee.

The relevant barriers to entry perhaps aren't to programming-the-skill, but programming-the-business-activity. In other words, the barriers to entering business of profiting from programming. And that makes software engineers higher priced commodity because there is higher competition from other companies, but also self-starts.

Hardware companies don't have pay their engineers as well because those engineers have a harder time leaving for other businesses. There are fewer capitalized companies, and self-capitalizing a chip HW business is very difficult. (and arguably the many smaller company options in that industry are rapidly consolidating - so employer options are going down rapidly).

So in the end software is paid well perhaps because the software profession deals with business areas which yield high value return on the labor, _and_ the low capital business barriers to those activites supports higher competition for software labor.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#326

Post by jcadam » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:35 PM UTC

ryanianian wrote: post #270

randomdata wrote: post #260

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps he means in relation to other careers? As someone who is both a software developer and a farmer, software isn't exactly easy, but in comparison to the knowledge and skill required to farm successfully, it is a breeze.

This is quite interesting - I'm actually quite curious about what makes farming more intellectually challenging and difficult than programming, especially from somebody who does both. (Honest curiosity!)

My grandfather was a farmer. By necessity he was also forced to become a competent mechanic, carpenter, electrician, and plumber (did I miss any?).

Farmers are the most self-sufficient people you'll ever meet.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#327

Post by southphillyman » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:37 PM UTC

vinceguidry wrote: post #201

The article gives as a potential reason for high developer compensation the possibility of a shortage of talent. That seems obvious to me, but the author goes on to suggest that if there was a shortage, you'd be seeing more people go into development. Does this actually happen? My understanding is that skill supply is simply not elastic in this way. Kids generally pick what to do based on their aptitude and what they…

>My understanding is that skill supply is simply not elastic in this way. Kids generally pick what to do based on their aptitude and what they like to do,

Right. You see this in 1st year CS major attrition rates and programming related MOOC completion rates.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#328

Post by falafel » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

christophilus wrote: post #169

aphextron wrote: post #134

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation. It seems impossible for this to last (why shouldn’t there by really valuable non-U.S. companies), but it does appear to be somewhat true for now. I feel like this is the real issue here. The reason that the US has great companies is simply from the availability of large amounts of capital. And if the…

This is true. I recently applied for a job in the US and one in the UK. In the US, I got a ridiculously good salary offer. The UK job's compensation was maybe half what the US job offered. My cost of living is also lower than the folks in London, so it's just perverse no matter how you slice it. I honestly don't think it will last, though. Economically, it just doesn't make sense. My recommendation to any of my fello…

To be honest, I think if anything the trend will continue and the salaries will go up. There will still be a shortage of highly skilled developers who demand higher salaries. At my company we've been trying to hire a senior frontend developer for the last 6 months; it's hard, especially outside of major tech areas. Most people come unprepared, lie in their resumes, and suffer intensely from the Dunning Kruger effect. I don't see this trend of lying to get the job that pays good money to stop anytime soon. Out the 1.6M programmers employed in the US, I think a large portion still have the job because companies are desperate to hire, but don't know how hire for this industry.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#329

Post by whack » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:38 PM UTC

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

Sure, programming is hard, but so is any job that pays more than the median wage. Hence why they pay more than the median wage. No one refers to "shit is hard" as a barrier-to-entry, because this "barrier" is so ubiquitous, it doesn't even need to be mentioned.

Artificial barriers-to-entry though, such as the licensing requirements for doctors/lawyers, are unique to some specific professions. Hence why they are worth highlighting.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#330

Post by gurkendoktor » Fri, Feb 09, 2018, 5:40 PM UTC

ddorian43 wrote: post #87

gurkendoktor wrote: post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Independent IT contractors in Germany don't have to put any money in a retirement fund, but hopefully they do, plus they pay 100% of their own health insurance, IT equipment (sometimes), insurance for their business (occasionally required)... A contractor making 10,000 a month is not comparable to an employee making 120,000 a year, probably closer to 90,000? I didn't mean to imply that it's a lightweight model, it ju…

Isn't health insurance, like, 100-200 month ??? You all acting like it's a big deal. (nl stats, student DE pays 80/month)

I'm probably overpaying because I stayed in a public (not private) health insurance plan, but I pay about 800€ a month, so close to 10k a year.