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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

danluu.com

301–310 of 584 posts

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#301
Perhaps anecdotal, but my opinion is this basically comes down to two general types of workers: those who know what competitive salary rates are and those who don't or don't care.

The first category knows exactly what they're worth and they'll push to get that worth. They know that if their current company won't pay that, they'll easily find another company that will. They end up switching jobs relatively frequently and get a raise each time.

On the flip side, you have the people that simply don't pursue higher salaries. They tend to get a job and stick with it for a long time. They'll take the 2 to 3% COL adjustments and an occasional promotions, but typically they'll stay with a company for years. While they certainly could find a better paying position, they won't. Perhaps because they like the lifestyle, the type of work, or even unaware that other companies are paying significantly better.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#302

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have an issue with that: law school and medical school certainly do not teach you how to practice law or medicine. Computer science sounds akin to both: you get theoretical underpinnings (many of which are outdated or will be unneeded for your specialty) but all your actual learning is on the job.

Agreed. I've done both law and programming. Law school categorically does not even try to teach aspiring lawyers how to practice. The classic curriculum is designed to teach you how to "think like a lawyer." There are exceptions here and there, but if you want practical skills, you have to deliberately look for the handful of seminars and clinics that teach them. Between learning to program and learning to practice l…

In the UK the practical skills are taught postgraduate in a Legal Practice Course.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#303
post #174
post #164

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Seriously. A lot of comments in here are "Well it's hard so we deserve it!". There are thousands of developers making fractions of what their equally talented counterparts make in the US.

Offshore developed code is not usually the same quality. Not that we all deserve huge salaries, but code quality important.

I assure you there's plenty of native code that is the same quality.

I write a lot of it professionally.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#304

A good answer to why software pays more than industries like law or medicine is that profit per employee in software is enormous. Of the 12 American companies on this chart of the highest profit per employee, 6 are software companies: http://www.businessinsider.com/apple-facebook-alphabet-most-... I would love to hear an economist explain why this might or might not lead to higher salaries. My hypothesis is there is…

I'm not sure that list is a fair way to determine an industry's profit per employee. Law firms aren't allowed to form C corps, which limits their size and would keep them off that list. I would expect top law firms to be in those ranges in for profit per employee, but they're much smaller so it isn't a fair comparison. 2 of the top 6 in that list are in medicine.

at my university's law school, which is a T14, the average starting salary is 125-150k.

Which is a lot, but not as much when considering that most law grads have mountains of debt plus the opportunity cost of not being the workforce for 3 years. Plus they average 55+ hours per week. And usually cannot work from home.

You're better off doing CS undergrad and working for a Big 10. The hours are on average and can be flexible if you're an efficient worker.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#305
post #143

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Truth be told, most software development doesn't require a high amount of intelligence, skill, or innate talent. I'm not afraid of a superior person taking my job. They would be no better at it than I am. I would probably be more productive if I were less intelligent (or on booze, but employers frown on that).

This is wrong. Even simple software requires a radically different way of thinking than the way most are trained. I've taught 6th graders how to code and it is clear that the way of approaching problems and creating solutions (i.e. creative thinking, intellectual curiosity, and willingness to collaborate and ask questions) really separates the students from who "get it" and thse who don't. Don't sell it short because…

I disagree, GP is absolutely correct. The reason people think that programming or software engineering is hard is because they were told that it is hard. US and the West in general has this strange culture where those that are supposed to know (teachers, parents, professors) like to tell those who are learning (students, children, etc) that whatever is done is hard. Math, apparently, is hard. Algebra is hard. Trigonometry is hard. Geography is hard. Physics is hard. It does not matter what it is - if it is worth doing it is all "hard".

Students that "get it" are the ones who managed to ignore the "hard" label. That's it.

In the industry I keep hearing that everything is hard:

Dev: "Logging is a solved problem at the rate we are looking at - it is what, 100 messages per second?" VP of Eng: "I dont know man. Logging is hard. We should outsource it."

SRE: "Just build images and spin them up" CTO: "That's hard. We should outsource it"

Dev: "Lets fix this reliability issue. We keep getting disconnects and it does something wacky to our API" CTO/VP Eng: "That's hard. Lets just see if we can spin up enough instances not to notice"

Most of stuff that we do is not hard.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#306

The reasons underlying the bi-modality are pretty clear to me. There are a couple of major factors at play: 1) Inflation. My starting salary out of college many years ago was $35K. Today's starting salaries are double that. Double in less than 20 years. A $50K salary in the early 1980s is equivalent to $120K today, not controlling for geographic location--HCOL areas are actually far worse than that. Let that sink in…

> Any way you look at doing software development as a career you come to see that it stinks. I'm not going to recommend it to my kids.

What are the alternatives though? Lawyers work much longer hours and only the ones who went to top schools and get into top firms make more. Doctors make more but have 6+ more years of education and training. Finance is competitive and also has long hours. Programmers have it pretty good.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#307
post #235

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ideally not. But then your government unilaterally decided that spreading American values, culture, and products is the best thing to do. And now a lot of people want to come here and experience first hand.

I'm fine with that, as long as they can positively contribute. I'm not fine with bringing in millions of people who immediately go on benefits while US citizens can't afford health care, college, and military vets are living on the street

Those two issues are orthogonal. It's not people on benefits, immigrant or otherwise, who are causing skyrocketing college tuition.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#308

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is absolutely true. I've claimed for years that programming is easy and it's not hard to teach to children, but I started when I was six. For older people, the field is hard to break into due to a cognitive barrier I've seen. "I don't know how to program and computers are mysterious-- therefore I don't know how to learn how to program." The biggest impediment to much larger participation in the top tiers of soft…

It's not just old people. When I was a kid, the Commodore 64 was the absolute state of the art in consumer computer hardware. What I was able to produce in C64 Basic after a few months of trying was, at least to a first order of approximation, comparable to the sorts of things that were considered professional software back then: the machine just couldn't do that much, so writing a simple game with an amorphous blob…

This absolutely. As someone who started later (in college) I was unbelievably dismayed at the amount of effort it took to output something that was nowhere near comparable to the software I used daily and took for granted.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#309

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> In that sense it feels perversly exploitative and priveleged to make so much more money than practically anyone else on earth due to nothing but the physical location I was born. Is it perverse to go swimming because you were born near a beach? Is it perverse to visit the Louvre if you are Parisian? Is it perverse to go to a good university because the universities in Elbonia aren't good? You're not entirely wrong,…

The difference is that others' lack of access to the Louvre or the beach isn't preventing them from feeding their families. To a degree, we should feel bad for having access to capital when there are far greater needs for this capital elsewhere. Most of us don't have any real power to change the situation unfortunately. But it is definitely something to be conscious of and you should reflect on what you can do to hel…

How bad should I feel exactly? Is this equivalent to murder? Had we foregone some luxury many could be saved from starvation.

I don't even really disagree, but the weight of the burden you assume responsibility over is very great. Why not devote your entire life to helping others if you are responsible for them, consume no luxuries, or anything but the most basic of needs.

I'm sure you could save thousands.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#310

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation. It seems impossible for this to last (why shouldn’t there by really valuable non-U.S. companies), but it does appear to be somewhat true for now. I feel like this is the real issue here. The reason that the US has great companies is simply from the availability of large amounts of capital. And if the…

> U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation It's almost impossible to immigrate to England (much harder than the US), yet programmers in SF are far better compensated than those in London.

> It's almost impossible to immigrate to England (much harder than the US), yet programmers in SF are far better compensated than those in London.

Immigration per se may be hard, but working is much easier than the US; I know several Romanians working as programmers in London.

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