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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#141

Post by meuk »

sheepmullet wrote: post #77
meuk wrote: post #9

IMHO, the title should be fixed to mention that it is only about developer compensation in the USA . I am always surprised at the salaries in the USA. I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees from two well established universities, and earn about 2k euro a month (before 20% tax deduction), which is considered fairly decent for a starter. Even then, many corporations outsource software development to Eastern…

> I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees What does that have to do with what you should be paid? My degree has provided a small and consistent boost over my career. It didn't make me significantly more valuable as a new starter. I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials. In the time it took you to gain four degrees an American dev could have gained 6-8 years of experience and…

> What does that have to do with what you should be paid?

I would expect that my effort would have at least some positive effect on my starter's income.

> I think Western Europe has a harmful fixation on a persons credentials.

I think so too. At my work I am doing similar stuff as when I started programming at 12. The main difference is that I had significantly more enthusiasm and energy back then.

I did learn a lot during my study, but it is absolutely not required for most of the jobs. Yet, it is required to have at least an undergraduate degree for practically all jobs. There are lots of improvements possible to this system if you ask me.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#143

Post by jcadam »

aphextron wrote: post #134

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation. It seems impossible for this to last (why shouldn’t there by really valuable non-U.S. companies), but it does appear to be somewhat true for now. I feel like this is the real issue here. The reason that the US has great companies is simply from the availability of large amounts of capital. And if the…

Truth be told, most software development doesn't require a high amount of intelligence, skill, or innate talent.

I'm not afraid of a superior person taking my job. They would be no better at it than I am. I would probably be more productive if I were less intelligent (or on booze, but employers frown on that).

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#144

Post by Clubber »

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

Not only is it hard, but the landscape changes frequently. You wouldn't design a system like you designed it pre-mobile, and you wouldn't design a system pre-mobile like you designed it pre-internet, and those are just the big shifts. Cloud is another big shift. A lot of people read how so and so design a system. So and so is successful, so I will design my systems that way. That's rarely ideal. Also, designs can change company to company, depending on what the company structure is, who they serve, etc. Designs can change when a company changes, so hopefully your software can change with it.

Sometimes you inherit a bad system, so how do you fix it while keeping your releases in stride. That's not easy, especially when then original designers aren't there anymore. Speaking of which, what's the best release stride for this company? You might have to adjust design for that too. Was this weird code done on purpose, is it a bug, or were they trying to hack around a mistake somewhere else? Time to roll the dice, because you need to change it. How do you minimize the collateral damage if you are wrong?

You also need to consider your limitations like network and persistence storage. That's a huge part that many haven't even considered yet. How are networks designed today? How is data persistence designed today? What are my options and what are my limitations with this company? What type of reports does this company need? That's a big one. How about failover, what does your system do when the network or database quits? Do you lose any data? Are you sure? How important is it to not lose data? It's not that bad if Facebook loses a post, but it sure is bad if a bank loses half of a transaction.

Programming has a lot of levels that we don't even realize until we hit a new one. Turning good specs into working code is level 1. It takes a hell of a lot of brainpower and abstract thinking to just do that.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#145

Post by coldtea »

>Another possibility is that U.S. immigration laws act as a protectionist barrier to prop up programmer compensation

So, US operating as a country (an entity with citizens, which it prioritizes other foreigners) rather than some arbitrary free-for-all geographical space?

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#146

Post by sjg007 »

baud147258 wrote: post #86
billysielu wrote: post #39

Developer salaries in the UK are very modest. Companies don't even know how to identify good developers, so they have no hope of competing over them.

Apparently, UK IT salaries are still above those in France, even if there is an (apparent) lack of IT professionals in the current market. Source (in French): http://bfmbusiness.bfmtv.com/emploi/metiers-du-numerique-les...

France and the UK just need a unicorn company or other powerhouse to come in to change the dynamic. Google/FB are there but really a home grown company would be better.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#147

Post by aaavl2821 »

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

I think there are two interesting correlaries:

1) programming seems to be one of the only "hard" professions that pays well (compared to math researchers, hard science researchers, or even things like some social work -- that's really hard in entirely different ways). Of course I'm probably missing some hard stuff that pays well

2) programming seems to be the "hardest" of the high paying jobs mentioned. Once you get them, banking, consulting and law jobs actually have a lot of mindless or not super challenging work

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#149

Post by rossdavidh »

foamflower wrote: post #139

One (semi-pedantic) quibble with the article: there absolutely are barriers to entry for programming. Programming is hard! These barriers may not be artificial, but they are real. To use a non-software example, there are barriers to entry to chip manufacturers and power companies even under anarchy. Fabs are tremendously hard to build. Power plants are extremely hard to build. Building up knowledge and skills about c…

In Electrical Engineering, which the article often mentions as a counterexample, the 10-year veteran is not nearly as likely to drop out of the profession. Programming has a constant bleed-out of people who learning how to program, became veterans, and then were dismayed to discover that they were going to have to do it all over again, because the libraries, frameworks, languages, etc. were different. Some just do it, but some move into management or out of the field entirely. This happens in engineering as well, but not nearly as often, and it means there is a more nearly constant shortage, I think.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#150

Post by gota »

deorder wrote: post #142

In the Netherlands the average salary for a senior developer is 40.000$ (~24.000 after taxes) while the cost of living is not that much different from the UK and US, may be except for healthcare. What exactly justifies the difference?

I'd guess this is due to the million aspects that configure that purposefully abstract 'Quality of life' metric.

In the end, it all comes down to: why are these people, who could do it, not moving from the Netherlands to the UK or US?

They are probably 'comfortable' in the Netherlands, whatever that means.

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