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How to retire at 30 on $1 million

ryanwaggoner.com

101–110 of 128 posts

Re: How to retire at 30 on $1 million

#101
post #34

I didn't see Tony Wright's article the other day, but I've just read it and the article linked here. I have a few comments. First, for the rest of this comment I'll define income as 'what you've got coming in' and wealth as 'what you keep or what you grow'. Most people fail to make this distinction (If you ask somebody if they are wealthy they will start talking about how much they get paid), but it's important, espe…

>I'd actually take a guess that a typical family wouldn't be able to spend $200k in a year if they did not make purchases whose primary purpose was to display status.

Mortgage + 3 cars + 2 kids in college + 1 in a private high school + 1 family vacation = ???

I don't think any of that stuff is a status symbol, or excessive. And it seems like that would easily exceed 200k a year, and that's excluding utilities, food, etc.

Re: How to retire at 30 on $1 million

#102
post #34

I didn't see Tony Wright's article the other day, but I've just read it and the article linked here. I have a few comments. First, for the rest of this comment I'll define income as 'what you've got coming in' and wealth as 'what you keep or what you grow'. Most people fail to make this distinction (If you ask somebody if they are wealthy they will start talking about how much they get paid), but it's important, espe…

>I'd actually take a guess that a typical family wouldn't be able to spend $200k in a year if they did not make purchases whose primary purpose was to display status. Mortgage + 3 cars + 2 kids in college + 1 in a private high school + 1 family vacation = ??? I don't think any of that stuff is a status symbol, or excessive. And it seems like that would easily exceed 200k a year, and that's excluding utilities, food,…

Well, were talking about somebody with $4m to play with. Unless they expect to get a better return from investing the money than the rate they are paying for their mortgage it makes sense that they would have bought the house.

You don't think three cars is excessive? We'll have to differ in opinion there.

A lot of your costs depend on location obviously but, yes, I stand by my hunch.

Re: How to retire at 30 on $1 million

#103
post #34

I didn't see Tony Wright's article the other day, but I've just read it and the article linked here. I have a few comments. First, for the rest of this comment I'll define income as 'what you've got coming in' and wealth as 'what you keep or what you grow'. Most people fail to make this distinction (If you ask somebody if they are wealthy they will start talking about how much they get paid), but it's important, espe…

>I'd actually take a guess that a typical family wouldn't be able to spend $200k in a year if they did not make purchases whose primary purpose was to display status. Mortgage + 3 cars + 2 kids in college + 1 in a private high school + 1 family vacation = ??? I don't think any of that stuff is a status symbol, or excessive. And it seems like that would easily exceed 200k a year, and that's excluding utilities, food,…

> it seems like that would easily exceed 200k a year

it seems to me like that wouldn't exceed 100k a year, and "2 kids in college, 1 in private high school" is probably your highest consumption year. Seems like we have vastly different expectations as to what's reasonable to spend on those things. See also my comment [0] and kscaldef's [1] on the previous thread.

I'd also assume you don't have mortgage/car payments with a $4.3m buyout, but instead pay those things in full but amortize the costs in your budget spreadsheet.

[0] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1627640 [1] http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=1627551

Re: How to retire at 30 on $1 million

#104

My dad spent 30 years in private banking for a big swiss bank, investing money long term for rich people. His advice to me when he retired: The only way to invest money long term and relatively risk free is through property - everything else is just bullshit.

One big concern with real estate is that properties are extremely undiversified investments that have high transaction costs, high holding costs (taxes and maintenance), and low liquidity.

The example of Amsterdam's housing prices comes to mind as an example of the risks of undiversification. Various accounts say that here has been no appreciation in house prices since 1736[1] or that it has only doubled in 350 years [2,3].

[1] http://curiouscapitalist.blogs.time.com/2007/11/14/house_pri...

[2] http://www.finfacts.ie/irishfinancenews/article_1019261.shtm...

[3] http://papers.ssrn.com/sol3/papers.cfm?abstract_id=598

Re: How to retire at 30 on $1 million

#105
post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Most property management companies are actually just managing the contractors who fix the sprinklers... those people aren't on your payroll. Usually property managers just take a fixed % of all the rental revenue.

I understand that, though I agree that my comment didn't make it clear. But you have to manage the property managers, no?

Not if they are even halfway decent. That's the entire point. An hour a month should suffice.

Re: How to retire at 30 on $1 million

#106

I would never want to retire. This whole series of articles is silly. Let alone that if you're the kind of person that wants to do nothing for the rest of your life there is an even smaller chance of making it in building a startup.

Why can't someone interested in a future in philanthropy, volunteerism, family building, etc., succeed at building a startup?

None of them are likely to be income-generating ventures, meaning for all intents and purposes, it's a life of retirement. Retirement does not imply doing "nothing" for the rest of one's life.

Re: How to retire at 30 on $1 million

#108
post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're definitely not managing the property in this scenario; part of the operating expense is hiring professional managers. REITs and other institutional investors own and operate properties like this from a distance all the time. EDIT: I should mention that I own several smaller properties in another state that are managed and I spend maybe an hour a month on them. I'd spend more on larger properties like this, but…

Would you consider expanding on some of the nuts and bolts of hiring and managing those professional managers? I can't name anyone who's had a good experience with a management company on either side of the transaction but of course that's likely confirmation bias. A 'day in the life' of what kind of issues you run into with those properties would be fascinating (to me anyway).

I joined a firm that owned and operated a portfolio of around 1,400 mixed-use units after college. The firm was small and so I was able to get involved in almost every aspect of the business. In addition, I'm currently getting a M.S. in Real Estate. I suspect our firm had better success because we had skin in the game. Personally, I would have difficulty handing over those responsibilities to someone without a long term financial stake.

Conversations about real estate investment are so localized and situation specific, it's difficult to make generalizations, but I'll try making a few anyway:

1) Motives - consider carefully when drawing up a contract what financial incentives are being created for your manager. Our top priority was always filling vacancies, but as an owner, your sign-off should be always be required before a new tenant is approved[1].

2) Kickbacks - if you expect your manager to handle hiring of contractors, he will be offered money to award the contract. You will also need contractors more often than you think. When a tenant moves out, you'll either renovate or at the very least, re-paint their apartment... depending on the local rental market, this can be the difference between a one month and a six month vacancy. The smaller the property, the more important it is to get apartments rented quickly.

3) Repairs - if something can go wrong, it usually will go wrong. Appliances, doors and other fixtures will break, capital improvements will get pushed ahead in your schedule and tenants will misbehave, sometimes even breaking the law and requiring the police to get involved. When you see a property with a high cap rate, expect more of these issues[2].

4) Emergencies - if you don't live very close by, you should have someone on staff that does or, even better, have someone on payroll that lives on-site.

This is only the tip of the iceberg, feel free to get ask any questions.

[1] Personally, I would also want to deposit all rent checks myself and sign off before any invoices were paid.

[2] Another "high cap rate" problem you'll be faced with is landlord-tenant court. These properties tend to just have more 'problem' tenants.

  P.S. Some last thoughts for investors:

  a) *You make your money when you buy.*

  Putting all your eggs in the appreciation basket is risky; 
  if the cashflows are there, many of the above issues won't 
  be keeping you up at night.

  b) *If your strategy is to hold for less than five years, 
  your management time just increased 10x.*

  Commercial real estate loans generally have a balloon 
  payment after 5, 7 or 10 years. You'll need to roll your 
  loan over at this point and any equity built up above the 
  lenders required loan to value (c. 65% these days) can be 
  extracted. Don't put yourself or your investors in a 
  position where you are forced to sell at a loss. 
  Credibility in this field is hard to gain, but easy to lose.
[Revised for clarity]

Re: How to retire at 30 on $1 million

#109
post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This can be a better way to start in real estate, but it's also highly dependent on the specific market, timing, and your skills. It also doesn't scale very well.

You can make the market timing argument for any property. Like I said, I bought in Detroit area in Jan '08. Look at the numbers, the timing was awful. The purchase itself, was not.

Jeff, how can you possibly make $$$ in the Detroit area, buying '08 ?!!! can you give us some numbers to clarify? thanks.

Re: How to retire at 30 on $1 million

#110
post #78

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In the UK Council Tax is based on the value of your property, based on some fairly informal assessments done years ago. Challenging your Council Tax band is possible if you think the value assessment is incorrect. It's not a direct tax on the wealth embodied by the property, but it is a way by which the wealthier pay more tax.

You have a point. I guess you can make a case that CT is an indirect wealth tax though it certaintly isn't intended to be. And of course the property value isn't re-evaluated on an ongoing basis so appreciation isn't reflected in the tax you pay during any given years liability. In my original comment what I was really trying to get at is that, as an investment strategy, you would want to maximise your wealth by mini…

No no, it's the same in the US and Canada. Wikipedia tells me it's around 1% for a £100,000 asset (in the UK). In Vancouver (Canada), I pay roughly 0.3%, so if anything the argument is stronger in Canada.

While you were _technically_ wrong that no one taxes on the entire value of the property, I think your point still stands, because the property tax rates are so low.

I believe that, in Canada, my trade-off looks like this:

On real estate, I'd pay a very low property tax (under half a percent?) on the principle, plus capital gains on the appreciation when I sell, plus income tax on revenue from the property.

On stocks, I'd pay some combination of capital gains on sale, and whatever the tax is on dividends. So the percentage on my income is higher, but it's only on the income.

The thing is, if you're gonna pay capital gains on the "wealth" (your definition) when you cash it out, the only reason it matters you're not getting taxed on the growth is that it compounds faster. So you get to ask yourself, which compounds faster, the non-realisable asset without tax, or the realisable one with tax.

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