As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it. In our educational system the increase in short-length programming classes at academy level has exploded and I doubt the market will keep up. Really great comp science or engineering students won’t ever have a problem, but I fully expect the short-length, autodidact or mediocre students to be entering a saturated market within the next f…
Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
61–70 of 584 posts
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#62I'm partial to the O-ring explanation. Software engineering is uniquely multiplicative because it's possible for a software engineer to create software that does software engineering. Chemical/electrical/mechanical engineers can't use their field to automate their field. Doctors and lawyers are almost exclusively service jobs, unlike the manufacturing nature of engineering. Automation is a force multiplier, and softw…
This feels like it could quickly descend in to self congratulation. So to cast this in a different light perhaps another way to think about this is that programming is just becoming a basic skill, like reading, writing, basic mathematics required for all disciplines. Most dedicated software engineers exist because this new basic skill hasn’t yet gained widespread adoption as a basic skill in other disciplines. But wi…
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#63IMHO, the title should be fixed to mention that it is only about developer compensation in the USA . I am always surprised at the salaries in the USA. I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees from two well established universities, and earn about 2k euro a month (before 20% tax deduction), which is considered fairly decent for a starter. Even then, many corporations outsource software development to Eastern…
Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and am at around 6k a month (+ vacation bonus +christmas bonus +personal performance bonus +company retirement plan) which is quite average in southern germany at least for bigger company and engineering/technical roles.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#64As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it. In our educational system the increase in short-length programming classes at academy level has exploded and I doubt the market will keep up. Really great comp science or engineering students won’t ever have a problem, but I fully expect the short-length, autodidact or mediocre students to be entering a saturated market within the next f…
This is my opinion as well. Many people still believe that programming equals a unique and high paying job. It is not ut is quite boring and you have to be the guy that always says yes and deliver no matter what, much like a factory worker.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#65Earlier quoted context omitted.
This feels like it could quickly descend in to self congratulation. So to cast this in a different light perhaps another way to think about this is that programming is just becoming a basic skill, like reading, writing, basic mathematics required for all disciplines. Most dedicated software engineers exist because this new basic skill hasn’t yet gained widespread adoption as a basic skill in other disciplines. But wi…
It takes a child several years in full-time education to learn how to fluently read and write. Basic mathematics takes even longer. Similarly, a typical person will become a skilled and highly productive software engineer only through spending several years working full-time at the profession, ideally with the assistance of one or more mentors. Having only a basic grasp of the concepts behind programming does not ena…
You can create basic good looking iOS or web or android app without all those years and be extremely useful. Many jobs and positions don't require years of study with mentors. Many self taught programmers started like that.
You can do basic data analytics and write selects without years or study too.
There is huge amount of positions that don't require years of study.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#66Earlier quoted context omitted.
In the US, my salary was about that (6250 USD/month) straight out of university 12 years ago, but of course I only had 2 weeks paid vacation. I did get bonuses, but no pension. IIRC taxes are slightly lower in Germany too. After putting the maximum amount into a 401(k) (self funded, pre-tax retirement) and paying taxes, I took home around $3500 per month, excluding bonuses.
That's about what I get after taxes, too (in EUR, ~3.6k EUR), but my retirement (with 7% interest) and healthcare costs are covered completely. Also I have about 40 vacation days and a 37h work week :)
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#672. Taught the wrong way - The CS degree way is bad outside of a few key institutions. Everything which is taught sounds too abstract and complex. It's simply not taught well.
The candidates from those key institutions will not take a low ball offer, they'll prefer being unemployed or going into business chasing their dreams. Most are from well off background. This keeps supply low.
3. Greenfield - After working at a software compare, you'll realize that making a new small business around software is not that hard. Afterall, the dumb people who give you requirements are doing it, how difficult can it be? So, after gaining bit some expertise, you are able to set yourself free. I don't think this is possible in other professions without taking a massive hit in compensation. With my new companies, I am always confident that we'll be 100% successful. I wouldn't have gone to pursue it if I didn't believe success was evident. Lots of smart folks leave for their dream, leaving non-experts in the workforce. So, the money is chasing very small pool of candidates.
4. Robbers - After working at the small business, you'll quickly realize that skill matter much less in business. To make a ton of money, you'll have to be at the right place and at the right time, yea getting to that place does require some skill. You'll find some guys have found a way to convince millions of users to upload their pics on your website and you can sell their data to advertisers making tons of money in the process. This is all new and regulators have no idea what to do, there are no rules - so you rig auction in your favor, yet winning more money from advertisers.
There is potential to do lot more evil in CS.
There are some companies who have built massive leverage. If you do not work for them, you'll simply do not earn much regardless of your skills.
5. Hire more coders what whatever cost - Once startup is growing is growing, you'll find that you need to exploit faster and simplest way to to do is leverage opensource, existing vendors, investment etc... You've no time to reinvent the wheel, the reservoir of nearly infinite free money will not wait for you. So, you'll hire plenty of smart coders at whatever price, you'll use wizard level DS/Algo questions and experience in gluing tons of different opensource technology/vendors etc... If still there are some holes, no problem, contracting someone is the last resort.
Here is the biggest cost alone is time. So, companies are willing to bet as high as possible or risk being unseated.
6. Fast nearly free exponential distribution, creating a copy of iPhone still need some labor, distributing same software to 100K people need much less effort. The software scales faster. We design a system to scale 10x by default. How many other manufacturing plants can scale 10x?
6. Leverage ecosystem - Opensource technology/Vendors/Investors/ and internet is the fastest medium to advertise.
The biggest thing -> Lack of regulation. No, one is verifying your code to make sure that it's not doing anything evil or not extracting something from a user which you didn't have a permit for.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#68Earlier quoted context omitted.
It takes a child several years in full-time education to learn how to fluently read and write. Basic mathematics takes even longer. Similarly, a typical person will become a skilled and highly productive software engineer only through spending several years working full-time at the profession, ideally with the assistance of one or more mentors. Having only a basic grasp of the concepts behind programming does not ena…
> Similarly, a typical person will become a skilled and highly productive software engineer only through spending several years working full-time at the profession, ideally with the assistance of one or more mentors. Having only a basic grasp of the concepts behind programming does not enable anyone to achieve anything particularly useful [...] You can create basic good looking iOS or web or android app without all t…
We obviously have differing definitions of the word 'useful'.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#69Earlier quoted context omitted.
do you have any quantified evidence of this or is it just a gut feeling
Well, it’s anecdotal from experience and my network. 10 years ago we would get 1-5 applications for a programming job, and most would frankly be underqualified. The last position I put up for a regular .net, jboss and sharepoint position had over 300 applicants, several vastly overqualified. I work in the public sector, so it’s not exactly because we offer what most developers consider “dream positions” and we certai…
Readers who just deleted emacs in despair should keep in mind that parent is hiring for Danish government position, not exactly the hotbed of software development or skills demand.
Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?
#70Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Similarly, a typical person will become a skilled and highly productive software engineer only through spending several years working full-time at the profession, ideally with the assistance of one or more mentors. Having only a basic grasp of the concepts behind programming does not enable anyone to achieve anything particularly useful [...] You can create basic good looking iOS or web or android app without all t…
> You can create basic good looking iOS or web or android app without all those years and be extremely useful. We obviously have differing definitions of the word 'useful'.