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Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

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Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#21

Post by foo232323 »

meuk wrote: post #9

IMHO, the title should be fixed to mention that it is only about developer compensation in the USA . I am always surprised at the salaries in the USA. I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees from two well established universities, and earn about 2k euro a month (before 20% tax deduction), which is considered fairly decent for a starter. Even then, many corporations outsource software development to Eastern…

Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and am at around 6k a month (+ vacation bonus +christmas bonus +personal performance bonus +company retirement plan) which is quite average in southern germany at least for bigger company and engineering/technical roles.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#22

Post by clintonb »

meuk wrote: post #18
banku_brougham wrote: post #13

To the puzzle about developer comp outstripping EE or other engineering disciplines pay (ie Civil Engineering god help me), I agree that the student in those fields could apply themselves to become able programmers. So why the huge disparity in pay? I have two ideas: 1. Lots of technically able people still don’t enjoy plugging their mind into a machine. Its probably hard to believe in the HN community but many peopl…

I recently started working as a programmer and don't like it. I started coding when I was about twelve, and did a CS bachelor and CE master. I like coding. I don't like, however, my work as a programmer. The tasks are just too mundane. I spend multiple days on a RESTful CRUD controller, just because there are so many (IMO useless and even obfuscating) layers of abstraction. The only challenging aspect is the lack of…

I didn't care much for my internships and early work. I felt like a cog in a machine. I always wanted to be the guy designing the machine. After a few years I was that guy. Not all entry work has to be mundane, but you learn a lot doing some of that work.

The fact that you are spending multiple days, rather than hours, building a controller hints to me that you haven't really mastered that work. Perhaps the task might feel less mundane if you developed a tool/framework to simplify the task itself.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#23

Post by gaius »

kenhwang wrote: post #7

I'm partial to the O-ring explanation. Software engineering is uniquely multiplicative because it's possible for a software engineer to create software that does software engineering. Chemical/electrical/mechanical engineers can't use their field to automate their field. Doctors and lawyers are almost exclusively service jobs, unlike the manufacturing nature of engineering. Automation is a force multiplier, and softw…

Chemical/electrical/mechanical engineers can't use their field to automate their field.

A mechanical engineer designing a new manufacturing technique or robot is most certainly using their field to automate their field. Most of computing exists because electronic engineers used their field to automate their field. Software is not unique in this respect.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#24

Post by litzer »

Kiro wrote: post #20
litzer wrote: post #16

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Software engineering is uniquely multiplicative because it's possible for a software engineer to create software that does software engineering. I think you misunderstood the O-ring explanation by citing that idea as an example. It doesn't mean building AI. It applies to any of those fields you mentioned. Good people in field X work together with other good people in field X in top firms -> multiplicative productiv…

Who said anything about AI?

Most people would consider software that "does software engineering" AI.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#25

Post by gurkendoktor »

meuk wrote: post #18
banku_brougham wrote: post #13

To the puzzle about developer comp outstripping EE or other engineering disciplines pay (ie Civil Engineering god help me), I agree that the student in those fields could apply themselves to become able programmers. So why the huge disparity in pay? I have two ideas: 1. Lots of technically able people still don’t enjoy plugging their mind into a machine. Its probably hard to believe in the HN community but many peopl…

I recently started working as a programmer and don't like it. I started coding when I was about twelve, and did a CS bachelor and CE master. I like coding. I don't like, however, my work as a programmer. The tasks are just too mundane. I spend multiple days on a RESTful CRUD controller, just because there are so many (IMO useless and even obfuscating) layers of abstraction. The only challenging aspect is the lack of…

I don't think this is the general frustration with programming that the grandfather post mentioned, it sounds more like you are working on a bad project.

There's always been some push-back against over-abstraction, from Rails' "FU Java" spirit to the whole Go ecosystem. It's just that these jobs are much harder to find than the typical Java EE hellscape.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#26

Post by meuk »

foo232323 wrote: post #21
meuk wrote: post #9

IMHO, the title should be fixed to mention that it is only about developer compensation in the USA . I am always surprised at the salaries in the USA. I have two bachelor degrees and two master degrees from two well established universities, and earn about 2k euro a month (before 20% tax deduction), which is considered fairly decent for a starter. Even then, many corporations outsource software development to Eastern…

Europe is far beyond the US (regarding cs saleries, I mean), but in e.g. Germany it's not that bad. I've a masters degree and about 3 years work experience and am at around 6k a month (+ vacation bonus +christmas bonus +personal performance bonus +company retirement plan) which is quite average in southern germany at least for bigger company and engineering/technical roles.

This seems more sane IMO. The pay in the US seems just crazy. Programming an sich is absolutely not something you need an extensive training for.

On the other hand, I spent a huge amount of time and effort on my eduation. While I could not do this without financial support from my parents, I also made a lot of sacrifices, and I am a little bit bitter that friends who dropped out as undergraduate make more than I do. Makes you wonder why anybody would like to work in IT at all.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#27

Post by Swizec »

litzer wrote: post #24
Kiro wrote: post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who said anything about AI?

Most people would consider software that "does software engineering" AI.

A compiler is software that does software engineering. Saves a lot of time and effort.

Package managers, that used to be hard to do by hand.

Bundlers and linkers, that stuff used to need skilled engineers.

Many other examples

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#28

Post by Arwill »

gaius wrote: post #23
kenhwang wrote: post #7

I'm partial to the O-ring explanation. Software engineering is uniquely multiplicative because it's possible for a software engineer to create software that does software engineering. Chemical/electrical/mechanical engineers can't use their field to automate their field. Doctors and lawyers are almost exclusively service jobs, unlike the manufacturing nature of engineering. Automation is a force multiplier, and softw…

Chemical/electrical/mechanical engineers can't use their field to automate their field. A mechanical engineer designing a new manufacturing technique or robot is most certainly using their field to automate their field. Most of computing exists because electronic engineers used their field to automate their field. Software is not unique in this respect.

Every field is working to automate their field with the help of software. For which you need software developers. The article raises the question of why people are hired as software developers even if they don't have such a degree. Its because companies see it as an automation problem and not as a software engineering problem. That is also why quality or experience of the developer is irrelevant most of the time, there is no one else to judge it, so if its working then its working.

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#29

Post by gaius »

eksemplar wrote: post #3

As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it. In our educational system the increase in short-length programming classes at academy level has exploded and I doubt the market will keep up. Really great comp science or engineering students won’t ever have a problem, but I fully expect the short-length, autodidact or mediocre students to be entering a saturated market within the next f…

As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it.

That is the dirty little secret of our industry. You need to do your day job AND on your own time, keep your skills up to date, and/or work on open source and/or write a blog or something. There was a post on there the other day on how keeping up to date with k8s is a full-time job in and of itself, well you need to do that - and a bunch of others - in your free time, in the full knowledge that what's hot today might turn out to be worthless in a year or two.

People on the outside, even those aspiring to get in, I don't think fully realize the commitment of those making the headline salaries in this field. Just as you won't make it as a banker unless you LOVE making deals, so much that you'd even do it for free...

Re: Is developer compensation becoming bimodal?

#30

Post by dagw »

eksemplar wrote: post #3

As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it. In our educational system the increase in short-length programming classes at academy level has exploded and I doubt the market will keep up. Really great comp science or engineering students won’t ever have a problem, but I fully expect the short-length, autodidact or mediocre students to be entering a saturated market within the next f…

As a manager I’d probably advice against picking programming unless you love it.

I would definitely advice people to learn programming, but not necessarily to aim to become programmers.

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