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The red and green specialists: why human colour vision is so odd

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31–38 of 38 posts

Re: The red and green specialists: why human colour vision is so odd

#31
post #25

As a colour-blind person, this article both makes sense to me, and at the same time it doesn't. I have often wondered why human colour vision is not evenly distributed across the spectrum of visible light. This seems like a decent enough model for why that might be the case. However, that makes it very peculiar that there are so many people with colour-blindness like me, especially if it would be such a strong evolut…

i think the social species and specialization both plays a role, but we also have gender specialization. colorblindness effects 8% of men, but only .5% of women. maybe the men have less pressure to select ripe fruit / see social cues. i understand this is because of the x/y chromosome effect, but maybe since it barely effects women its not a strong enough evolutionary pressure to wipe colorblindness out completely.

> i understand this is because of the x/y chromosome effect, but maybe since it barely effects women its not a strong enough evolutionary pressure to wipe colorblindness out completely.

That is a fair point. A slightly less friendly interpretation of this would be that men are the expendable gender, genetically speaking.

> maybe the men have less pressure to select ripe fruit / see social cues

I don't think any gender escapes the necessity to read social cues. There might be differences in which one though, but we're veering into a political minefield of nature/nurture questions here.

For example: there is a famous experiment where people were asked to guess if greyscale pictures of faces (cropped to not show hair) were male or female. The twist was that each face appeared twice, with the only difference in being how high the contrast was (especially the lips, IIRC).

High-contrast faces were more likely to be judged feminine than low-contrast faces. Again, this says nothing about whether this gender perception was nature or nurture.

Re: The red and green specialists: why human colour vision is so odd

#32

It would be interesting to design a UI colour scheme specifically with this in mind, with strategic use of red vs green for focusing attention in a way that parallels the eye's natural biological tuning, as a similar approach to accessibility UI design for colour-blindness. If anyone knows anything like that that's been tried I'd be really interested.

We already use colour schemes tuned to our perception. They naturally converge on them.

Have you never noticed how colour blind people always complain that so many interfaces use red and green as two opposing colours? Or how those colours are overused in carthography? Because we do.

Re: The red and green specialists: why human colour vision is so odd

#33

It would be interesting to design a UI colour scheme specifically with this in mind, with strategic use of red vs green for focusing attention in a way that parallels the eye's natural biological tuning, as a similar approach to accessibility UI design for colour-blindness. If anyone knows anything like that that's been tried I'd be really interested.

I don't know if it is ironic or if there is something I didn't understand...

That's because you just described traffic lights.

Now, I don't think a lot of biological research have been done when deciding the colors of traffic lights, there is research about why they feel so obvious.

The idea is: Red is the most noticeable color, good for signaling danger or requiring attention. Green is distinct from red, it is also the brightest color, so it is good as a complement for red. Yellow is simply the intermediate between red and green.

Re: The red and green specialists: why human colour vision is so odd

#34
post #33

It would be interesting to design a UI colour scheme specifically with this in mind, with strategic use of red vs green for focusing attention in a way that parallels the eye's natural biological tuning, as a similar approach to accessibility UI design for colour-blindness. If anyone knows anything like that that's been tried I'd be really interested.

I don't know if it is ironic or if there is something I didn't understand... That's because you just described traffic lights. Now, I don't think a lot of biological research have been done when deciding the colors of traffic lights, there is research about why they feel so obvious. The idea is: Red is the most noticeable color, good for signaling danger or requiring attention. Green is distinct from red, it is also…

Agreed that we probably end up on that naturally for things like traffic lights or danger signs, but I was thinking more interns of a full UI with that approach as an integral, conscious design consideration... based on more in depth and sophisticated study of replicating colour schemes in a natural environment in a broader sense.

Re: The red and green specialists: why human colour vision is so odd

#35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is an alternative hypothesis. That it's just an evolutionary accident. Possibly it's a side effect of some other factor that is significant. I mean, we get a lot of evolutionary traits because of bias through natural selection. But there's probably not much reason to lose a trait if there's no selection pressure to. It still may happen,of course. It's possible we'll all have brown eyes some time down the road.…

Of course, there may be no strong selection pressure against it. But the odd bias for red-green distinction has been there from the earliest primates, suggesting there is a strong selection pressure in favour of specialising in red-green hue distinction. This then goes directly against having no ability to distinguish so many green and red hues. Well, unless the only genetic way to maintain this bias includes a risk…

> Tangent: eye color is very strongly influenced by natural selection...

Maybe, but then what’s your explanation for the prevalence of brown eyes due to natural selection?

Re: The red and green specialists: why human colour vision is so odd

#36
post #20

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Dog have worse resolution, color perception and depth perception than humans. http://servicedogcentral.org/content/node/391

I was contesting the statement that forward-facing eyes somehow make us special. They don't. They are a trait we share with most predators.

But our primate ancestors who originally evolved forward-facing eyes were not predators. Makes much more sense to think it was to help in swinging from limb to limb in trees.

Re: The red and green specialists: why human colour vision is so odd

#37
post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Of course, there may be no strong selection pressure against it. But the odd bias for red-green distinction has been there from the earliest primates, suggesting there is a strong selection pressure in favour of specialising in red-green hue distinction. This then goes directly against having no ability to distinguish so many green and red hues. Well, unless the only genetic way to maintain this bias includes a risk…

> Tangent: eye color is very strongly influenced by natural selection... Maybe, but then what’s your explanation for the prevalence of brown eyes due to natural selection?

Do you realise that you are implying that sexual selection is in favour of light eyes in general? This was not what I stated.

I merely talked about differentiating in- and out-groups, which is localised, meaning the homogeneity of an eye colour within an ethnicity can be explained through sexual selection.

Regarding the prevalence of brown eyes, light eyes and hair are a recent and recessive mutation. That is all that is required to explain why it is localised and less common: it is limited to people who descended from the point of origin of the mutation. In this case that would be Northern Europe.

http://learn.genetics.utah.edu/content/basics/patterns/

Re: The red and green specialists: why human colour vision is so odd

#38

> Instead of having good vision, dogs, horses, mice, antelope – in fact, most mammals generally – have long damp snouts that they use to sniff things with. It is we humans, and apes and monkeys, who are different. What a load of bull. Dogs and wolves eyes are facing forward, as do cats', owls', jumping spiders' main eyes, and generally those of most hunting predators. Eyes facing forward is good for depth perception…

The best eyes/most complex eyes in the world goes to the mantis shrimp. http://phenomena.nationalgeographic.com/2014/07/03/natures-m... A few snippets: a compound eye, made of thousands of small units that each detects light independently 12 to 16 different photoreceptors in its midband has six photoreceptors dedicated to...UV incredibly sophisticated UV detectors

A testament to how important signal processing is: Despite its 22 different photoreceptors rather than the humans three (four if you count cones), mantis shrimp can only distinguish a limited number of colors as their brains do not mix the inputs from the different receptors, but rather just go with the strongest one to determine the color of an object.

http://www.businessinsider.com/the-mantis-shrimp-color-visio...

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