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Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

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Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#71

Post by billti »

hvidgaard wrote: post #14
se30b wrote: post #7

If you choose to have children then your career is raising children. You have to choose to prioritize one or the other, the idea that you can take large amounts of time off and still be at the same level as people who kept working is insane. There isn't any injustice going on here. Juggling an intense career path with raising children is a bad idea. Sending children to day care for large amounts of their youth has be…

The entire point, and what the graph clear shows, is that fathers and mothers wage-growth significantly diverges. Both become a parent, but apparently only the mothers pay suffer.

The most amazing thing to me was that the male income didn't budge after childbirth. Even ignoring taking time off work, my free time in the evenings and mornings, when I would often do some of my best focused work, has almost entirely vanished since having kids.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#72

Post by stcredzero »

zaroth wrote: post #22
hvidgaard wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point, and what the graph clear shows, is that fathers and mothers wage-growth significantly diverges. Both become a parent, but apparently only the mothers pay suffer.

As long as only women can get pregnant, give birth, and breast feed, it turns out that choosing to make babies will (on average) be disproportionately more work for women than men. Obviously with unlimited resources this doesn’t have to be the case, but it will always be the average case. This result isn’t surprising, nor does it seem something that society should be overly concerned with fixing. Choices have all sor…

As long as only women can get pregnant, give birth, and breast feed, it turns out that choosing to make babies will (on average) be disproportionately more work for women than men.

Weirdly, there's still a household chore gap between men and women. My position on this is pretty well inline with John Green's: The pay gap is down to a single digit difference, but there is a difference in the unrenumerated work which goes into keeping society going in the context of raising children. (We might disagree on what to do about it.)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=it0EYBBl5LI

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#74

Post by hk__2 »

09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

> Men tend to choose STEM careers and competitive paths because they are free to choose, and women tend to choose to become doctors, nurses, and part-time workers of any kind, because they are also free to choose.

Citation needed. In 1997, only 1 out of 3 doctors were women in Norway. [1] Did it significally change during the past 20 years? Also, since 1990 the ratio of part-time workers lowered among women and went higher among men, so it’s false to claim that women choose more part-time than men now that they have equal "choice". [2]

> Another way to say this is, there will always be Gender Inequality because the (biological) genders are not equal to each other. A woman does not equal a man, and she shouldn't

Women "choosing" to become doctors and nurses while men choose STEM careers has nothing to do with biology. Women are still underrepresented in leadership positions, and healthcare is no exception. [3] [4]

--

[1]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11144775

[2]: https://www.regjeringen.no/globalassets/upload/bld/rapporter...

[3]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4235590/

[4]: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12899913

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#75

Post by asabjorn »

jaaron wrote: post #47
09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

I'm not convinced that there still is that full sense of "freedom to choose" that you suggest. In your argument that genders naturally tend towards certain careers, how certain are you that you've eliminated systemic bias that may still cause inequalities in occupation and opportunity? For example, I suspect a similar argument could have been made a few decades ago about why women tend to be nurses not doctors, or wh…

What is it about Scandinavia that you believe does not give equal opportunity and choice?

Norway’s current and many of the previous prime ministers were female, there is generous social support for working parents, most women get a college degree, etc Women are still free to choose the kind of job they desire, and they do so.

It is incredibly undesirable to force women and men to choose different jobs because of an ideological desire for equal outcome. There is no way to achieve that without tyranny and without hurting equal opportunity.

With regards to high value jobs that women have chosen due to equal opportunity you have to look no further than doctors. It used to be a mainly male occupation in the western world, and it’s now dominated by women.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#76

Post by svantana »

ars wrote: post #13

Why is there this underlying theme that Careers are more important than Children? They are not. The measure of your life is not how much money you made, it's how many people love you, and actually care that you are alive. Someone with lots of money how dies alone and unmourned, is not better off than someone with less money, who is surrounded by his descendants.

Nowhere was that implied, I'm pretty sure most people agree that both are important, no need to create a false dichotomy.

You're argument is reminiscent of some who opposed the suffragettes, who argued that raising children is much more important than voting. Even if that's the case, that is no argument for injustice.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#77

Post by desmonds22 »

ars wrote: post #13

Why is there this underlying theme that Careers are more important than Children? They are not. The measure of your life is not how much money you made, it's how many people love you, and actually care that you are alive. Someone with lots of money how dies alone and unmourned, is not better off than someone with less money, who is surrounded by his descendants.

Get with the program - a woman is enslaved and subjugated to her husband if she is raising children in any way. True freedom is being single, childless and working 60 hour weeks at work (edit: likely for a man)

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#78

Post by cfontes »

sien wrote: post #55
se30b wrote: post #7

If you choose to have children then your career is raising children. You have to choose to prioritize one or the other, the idea that you can take large amounts of time off and still be at the same level as people who kept working is insane. There isn't any injustice going on here. Juggling an intense career path with raising children is a bad idea. Sending children to day care for large amounts of their youth has be…

'Sending children to day care for large amounts of their youth has shown to be highly detrimental to their development' What are your sources for this claim? In Sweden 85% of 2 year olds are in day care enabling mothers to work. This has been the case for decades. Source: http://www.keepeek.com/Digital-Asset-Management/oecd/social-... If what you claim is true the entire country of Sweden should show adverse affects.…

The Netherlands is pretty close to that from what I've seen. Most children some of the children here go to day-care from 4 months old on so mothers can get back to work.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#79

Post by stcredzero »

HP had some interesting policies which were of great benefit to women. I've been told that HP lets people share a position. Two people can work half time with full benefits, then they are evaluated and promoted as one unit. Many women who were raising families opted to do this.

Tactically, this seems great, but the question that comes to my mind is, if such a practice were widely adopted throughout the industrialized world, would this have the effect of halving the power of women in internal workplace politics? The follow on question that comes to mind: What, exactly, is the effect on the power of women in internal workplace politics, of women taking time off work to raise children?

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#80

Post by Jare »

zaroth wrote: post #22
hvidgaard wrote: post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The entire point, and what the graph clear shows, is that fathers and mothers wage-growth significantly diverges. Both become a parent, but apparently only the mothers pay suffer.

As long as only women can get pregnant, give birth, and breast feed, it turns out that choosing to make babies will (on average) be disproportionately more work for women than men. Obviously with unlimited resources this doesn’t have to be the case, but it will always be the average case. This result isn’t surprising, nor does it seem something that society should be overly concerned with fixing. Choices have all sor…

This is so intellectually dishonest it borders on insult.

> the idea that you can take large amounts of time off and still be at the same level as people who kept working is insane

Here you talk about the "career of raising children"

> only women can get pregnant, give birth, and breast feed

And then you proceed to justify it with an activity that on average probably lasts for about a year and can in large part be made compatible with a professional life. The average SV hacker brags about taking longer sabbaticals than this.

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