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Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

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Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#41
post #7

If you choose to have children then your career is raising children. You have to choose to prioritize one or the other, the idea that you can take large amounts of time off and still be at the same level as people who kept working is insane. There isn't any injustice going on here. Juggling an intense career path with raising children is a bad idea. Sending children to day care for large amounts of their youth has be…

> Sending children to day care for large amounts of their youth has been shown to be highly detrimental to their development.

Can you give me a few links on this? Our child is in daycare, and we both work.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#42
post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

There’s to the best of my knowledge no study that shows that the biological gender matters for the choice of profession. The issue that often muddies things is that girls have been (and still are) brought up with the notion that some professions are not suited to them. This is especially pronounced in IT, where for a long time at the start of the profession, women had the majority of employed people and things starte…

And, to prove this point, the gender ratio is much better in STEM fields other than computing and engineering. Biology, for example, has more women graduating nowadays than men, despite the fact that a lot of biology work is actually CS (and more intellectually challenging than most software engineering jobs at tech companies, which to a large extent involve creating CRUD apps).

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#43
post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

[deleted]

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#44
post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

I can't believe that in 2018, people are still upvoting posts with lines like "A woman does not equal a man, and she shouldn't.". What the fuck.

Do you have any idea how much social/cultural conditioning influences men and women's "biological" decisions to go into whatever field? I am immensely grateful to my parents, who told me that I could do anything I wanted and put me in math and science camps as a kid. I am not surprised that little girls (and boys) who are not given that kind of support don't go into "competitive" "STEM" careers.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#45
post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's an opinion I can understand, but it completely misses the point of the article. The article is about the fact that children are a far greater risk for women careers that men's.

> The article is about the fact that children are a far greater risk for women careers that men's. The obvious solution here is to convince women to stop having kids. Now, I don't think this, but I also don't personally have a problem with women choosing kids over careers.

Corporations do actually discriminate against married women of child-bearing age, versus single women or women who have older children.

Fact is, having kids means taking time off. And while fathers can take time off if they want in many countries, most take less time than women so as to not interrupt their career.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#46
post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

I think this is one of those things that "sounds true" but if we analyzed more deeply and for longer time-spans, we'd find out it's at best half-true, while the other half involves many other factors.

Not disagreeing that gender doesn't play a role in making such choices, but I think society, education, and culture play at least as big of a role. People want to be "seen" a certain way among their peers. A man doesn't want to be "seen" as a nurse, for instance...

This is not because of gender. It's a cultural/societal issue that a nurse job is not an "appropriate" job for a man. So the man "chooses" whatever is "more appropriate" for a man in his society to obtain. But was it really a true choice?

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#47
post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

I'm not convinced that there still is that full sense of "freedom to choose" that you suggest. In your argument that genders naturally tend towards certain careers, how certain are you that you've eliminated systemic bias that may still cause inequalities in occupation and opportunity?

For example, I suspect a similar argument could have been made a few decades ago about why women tend to be nurses not doctors, or why women tend to teach only in elementary but not university settings.

For your argument to have full merit, you'd have to run an experiment in a truly unbiased, gender equal culture. One does not exist. Therefore, your argument rests largely on a hypothesis that, "see, this is the way things are and that says something about the innate nature of gender."

To really challenge yourself, take your comment and swap out gender for race. Would you still feel as comfortable to suggest that, "... where all races have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is that that racial effects are actually maximized. Whites tend to choose professional careers and competitive paths because they are free to choose, and Mexicans tend to choose to become gardeners and low wage workers of any kind, because they are also free to choose."

If that feels uncomfortable, then perhaps your premise needs reevaluated.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#48
post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

There’s to the best of my knowledge no study that shows that the biological gender matters for the choice of profession. The issue that often muddies things is that girls have been (and still are) brought up with the notion that some professions are not suited to them. This is especially pronounced in IT, where for a long time at the start of the profession, women had the majority of employed people and things starte…

I think he is referring to the research work of Simon Baron-Cohen?

https://www.huffingtonpost.com/belinda-parmar/sugar-and-spic...

The general conclusion being that men tend to focus on ideas and woman gravitate towards people.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#49
post #13

Why is there this underlying theme that Careers are more important than Children? They are not. The measure of your life is not how much money you made, it's how many people love you, and actually care that you are alive. Someone with lots of money how dies alone and unmourned, is not better off than someone with less money, who is surrounded by his descendants.

The question of purpose is alot more nuanced than that. biologically it is hard to argue that reproduction is a significant part.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#50
post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

Oh here come the SJWs to tell you how wrong you are for even daring to suggest men and women are different or even worse - men and women are merely a social construct and there's really no such thing as gender or abilities there's just systems of power preserving historic gender roles because something something western white male something something evil. Just a hunch...

Edit: Apparently this comment triggered some snowflake and got flagged. The mean man on the internet said something I disagreed with! :'(

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