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Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

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Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#31

Post by kinkrtyavimoodh »

watwut wrote: post #15
hvidgaard wrote: post #4

From experience, primary caretakers of children tend to favor less weekly work hours, flexible schedules, ect. All things that doesn't exactly lend itself to a "high-powered career". So the question I'd like answered is not if women should have the same earning as their male part, they should have the same oppotunity. But if they want it at the cost of the flexibility and hours they ask for?

Women on average have less flexible hours and female dominated occupations have less flex time then male dominated occupations. Otherwise said, nurse, psychologist or teacher must be there at time. Same with service workers, call center and pretty much anyone who works with people in person. Female dominated professions that could work from home or could be flexible are not. Programmers get to choose when they come t…

> Programmers get to choose when they come to work and see it as their God given right.

Why frame it in this inflammatory way? The fact that programmers can choose their work hours is a privilege and a job-perk. What is the point of guilt-tripping them about it? Surely an ideal world is where more people can work when they please rather than one where everyone is forced to clock fixed hours just because there exist some workers who don't have that freedom?

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#32

Post by Xylakant »

09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

There’s to the best of my knowledge no study that shows that the biological gender matters for the choice of profession. The issue that often muddies things is that girls have been (and still are) brought up with the notion that some professions are not suited to them. This is especially pronounced in IT, where for a long time at the start of the profession, women had the majority of employed people and things started to switch over when home computers were marketed as a boys toy. There are strong indicators that the biological gender contributes much less than what the society expects in terms of gender roles.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#33

Post by eecc »

Well, if the gap tends to 20% it may also indicate a strong tendency to 4-day week among parenting women while men won’t. The fact it approaches it from below suggests a career delay but other than that I don’t see signs of “career killer”. That men’s share of parent leave is so small may be more indicative, but the final datum would be scale promotion rates across genders (although that would restrict to collective bargaining contracts)

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#34

Post by curtis »

williamdclt wrote: post #17
se30b wrote: post #7

If you choose to have children then your career is raising children. You have to choose to prioritize one or the other, the idea that you can take large amounts of time off and still be at the same level as people who kept working is insane. There isn't any injustice going on here. Juggling an intense career path with raising children is a bad idea. Sending children to day care for large amounts of their youth has be…

That's an opinion I can understand, but it completely misses the point of the article. The article is about the fact that children are a far greater risk for women careers that men's.

> The article is about the fact that children are a far greater risk for women careers that men's.

The obvious solution here is to convince women to stop having kids.

Now, I don't think this, but I also don't personally have a problem with women choosing kids over careers.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#35

Post by taoistextremist »

09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

I won't disagree with you, except maybe to point out I don't think it's necessarily just biological, but psychological/physiological gender as well that causes the difference. There is some evidence, though last I checked inconclusive, that gender identity has a fairly strong relation with certain brain structures. I don't think it would be surprising that these differences also cause people to gravitate towards certain interests.

Not to say it's always 100% going to make them go towards those interests, before anybody accuses me of making that claim, but it's fairly apparent as far as I'm concerned that even given equal opportunity, people of different genders aren't attracted to the same fields in equal proportion. Gender in multiple senses determines how the brain develops, so it would be surprising if these fields were demographically equal.

I think making an equal opportunity approach is definitely the right thing, but equal outcome I think ends up holding people back and forcing others into fields they won't enjoy. It's working not on the idea of cultivating individual people's passions but forcing them to fit some ideal.

In any case, though, I don't think any of this means that women should be disproportionately affected by having a child. I'm willing to buy the argument that it's societally caused due to expectations and men taking less time off than women for their children.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#36

Post by shultays »

ars wrote: post #13

Why is there this underlying theme that Careers are more important than Children? They are not. The measure of your life is not how much money you made, it's how many people love you, and actually care that you are alive. Someone with lots of money how dies alone and unmourned, is not better off than someone with less money, who is surrounded by his descendants.

Having a children does not automaticly make you a more likable person. Two is not related at all

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#37

Post by Mikeb85 »

ars wrote: post #13

Why is there this underlying theme that Careers are more important than Children? They are not. The measure of your life is not how much money you made, it's how many people love you, and actually care that you are alive. Someone with lots of money how dies alone and unmourned, is not better off than someone with less money, who is surrounded by his descendants.

> Why is there this underlying theme that Careers are more important than Children?

Because, to a corporation and society's ruling class, all that matters is having productive workers. Having a life gets in the way of that.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#38

Post by eecc »

_m8fo wrote: post #3

It's not that children are career killers, but rather taking significant amounts of time off is. It's also unclear if harming your career is even a bad thing to begin, considering the options given (e.g. Don't have children, have children but neglect them, have children and take care of them, but have lower income when the caregiver returns to the work force). Perhaps spending proper time with children, even if it is…

Fathers can take - plenty do here in NL - take a day off to mess around with junior...

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#39

Post by luddaite »

Xylakant wrote: post #32
09bjb wrote: post #9

Generally speaking, equality of choice between the sexes is unequivocally a good thing...but we're going to spend years untangling the muddy notion in many people's minds that equality of outcome is expected when there is perfect equality of opportunity . What actually happens in the Scandinavian countries, where both sexes have the highest levels of equality of opportunity, education, and choice in the world...is th…

There’s to the best of my knowledge no study that shows that the biological gender matters for the choice of profession. The issue that often muddies things is that girls have been (and still are) brought up with the notion that some professions are not suited to them. This is especially pronounced in IT, where for a long time at the start of the profession, women had the majority of employed people and things starte…

I agree. It seems to be an oversimplification to say that, given the choice, women choose non-STEM jobs. There is centuries of inertia behind the expectations of males and females with regards to career choices. Over time, it is likely that these gender-based expectations will erode and only then will we see if there is true gender-dependent preference when it comes to career choices.

Re: Even in Denmark, children are career killers for working moms

#40

Post by collyw »

ars wrote: post #13

Why is there this underlying theme that Careers are more important than Children? They are not. The measure of your life is not how much money you made, it's how many people love you, and actually care that you are alive. Someone with lots of money how dies alone and unmourned, is not better off than someone with less money, who is surrounded by his descendants.

I think thats for each individual to decide for themselves.

My career is more important to me than children, because I don't particularly want to raise a child and am not intending to have any. Plus I think there are already too many people on the planet. Doesn't mean I can't love others around me.

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