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What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

theatlantic.com

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Re: What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

#111

Post by Clubber »

dragonwriter wrote: post #108
Clubber wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>A poor person today lives better than a king of old. That is an illusion to help people with their conscience. It does sound nice, but ... The poor maybe eat better and maybe have better shelter, and certainly access to cleaner water, but they have significantly less control over their destiny. Also, kings didn't have to work and they were (usually) extremely wealthy, had servants, and could do whatever they wanted…

> Kings also didn't die from an easily treatable but ultimately unaffordable medical condition. Worse, they died from medical conditions which could be survived with no treatment, because treatments with negative utility based on lore with no scientific basis were applied which the common folk would not have access to.

I think George Washington was actually bled to death as a medical treatment.

Re: What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

#113

Post by boomboomsubban »

ocschwar wrote: post #85
clebio wrote: post #65

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think physical labor is a big deal -- indeed us computer-and-desk workers think a lot about how to stay active -- and I don't take that to be the crux of the article at all. In fact, I'm surprised that none of the comments here have yet mentioned what I see as the worst, and tangibly different aspect of Amazon warehouse work: the gamification of the tasks. > blue bars on the scanner count down the amount of t…

The biggest problem, I am willing to bet, is that the gamification and the parameter changes are being done by desk jockeys who have never worked the floor at one of these warehouses.

They aren't making these moves out of ignorance, they have far too much data for that. Those desk jockeys' jobs are to maximize profits, and this strategy is working.

Re: What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

#114

Post by _rpd »

s73ver_ wrote: post #83
_rpd wrote: post #49

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think it is pretty clear that we should automate box packing as soon as possible. It is a waste of human talent to have people doing this.

The problem is, those people need to have jobs.

Even moving them to quality control or edge case handling is a win. No one is going to miss box packing.

Re: What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

#115

Post by boomboomsubban »

ars wrote: post #88
s73ver_ wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But it's better than no job at all." If that's all you have to defend it with, then you have nothing to defend. People expect better of Amazon, as they should. The company turned the owner into the richest man on the planet; there is zero excuse for short changing the workers.

> If that's all you have to defend it with, then you have nothing to defend. Sure. No problem. They'll just have no job. And you can continue to believe that. > The company turned the owner into the richest man on the planet Because of the value of his stock. NOT income from sales! Amazon does not have extra money from sales to raise wages with. Their retail business runs at a loss actually. Raising wages would make…

>Because of the value of his stock. NOT income from sales! Amazon does not have extra money from sales to raise wages with. Their retail business runs at a loss actually. Raising wages would make things even worse.

The value of the stock is supposed to be a reflection of the value of the company. If their retail business is worthwhile even if running at a loss, than they could run at a larger loss with the only downside being the company's value dropping.

>You actually want to help them? Figure out how to give them more education. Complaining that Amazon is helping them, but "not enough" is worthless.

Better education takes more tax money, something Amazon has spent their entire history trying to avoid paying. And how many of them need better education before the necessary jobs at the warehouses get better conditions?

Re: What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

#116

Post by s73ver_ »

ars wrote: post #88
s73ver_ wrote: post #71

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"But it's better than no job at all." If that's all you have to defend it with, then you have nothing to defend. People expect better of Amazon, as they should. The company turned the owner into the richest man on the planet; there is zero excuse for short changing the workers.

> If that's all you have to defend it with, then you have nothing to defend. Sure. No problem. They'll just have no job. And you can continue to believe that. > The company turned the owner into the richest man on the planet Because of the value of his stock. NOT income from sales! Amazon does not have extra money from sales to raise wages with. Their retail business runs at a loss actually. Raising wages would make…

"Sure. No problem. They'll just have no job. And you can continue to believe that."

Ahh yes, the old, "You must lick the boots of your corporate masters for seeing to bless you with a few crumbs!" argument. It has never, ever held water.

"Amazon does not have extra money from sales to raise wages with."

That is a complete and utter lie.

"Their retail business runs at a loss actually. Raising wages would make things even worse."

The business as a whole, which is built on top of the retail business, is quite profitable. Them deciding to run retail at a loss does not change things.

"That's not what short changing is"

Yes, it is.

"There is no magic fairy that can go around giving people money, as you seem to think "just give them more money"."

Nobody is asking for a "magic fairy." They're pointing out that it's extremely unconscionable that the richest man in the world cannot afford to pay his workers a living wage.

"There's a reason we tell students to finish high school, and go to college or a trade school - to avoid these kinds of jobs."

And the people who don't have much choice should just go to hell? Seriously, what is it with this idea that people who weren't able to get an education, for whatever reason, don't deserve to be treated with dignity and respect?

Re: What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

#117

Post by s73ver_ »

sildur wrote: post #15
mrgreenfur wrote: post #2

Most folks I know seem blissfully unaware or uninterested in these realities behind their next day delivery. Even supremely liberal folks in boston and new york seem to think that complaining that their prime delivery being a day late or poorly packed is reasonable to gripe about, totally ignoring the human cost behind such offerings.

They should replace workers with robots. That would remove the human cost.

Why do you feel these workers are not entitled to basic human dignity and respect? Why is it that any time the workers try to get some piece of the massive prosperity that they've contributed to building, they get threatened with automation? Why should they not share in the rewards for the company they helped to make prosperous?

Re: What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

#118

Post by s73ver_ »

_rpd wrote: post #114
s73ver_ wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is, those people need to have jobs.

Even moving them to quality control or edge case handling is a win. No one is going to miss box packing.

It's only a win if they don't get laid off or have their paychecks cut.

And I'm pretty sure that the people who do it for their job, if they aren't able to find another one, would miss it.

Automation can be good, but we can't forget that these are actual people, with rent payments, food bills, and possibly families, that are currently doing these jobs. Blindly following the "Automation is great" mantra, while forgetting about them, is going to be disastrous.

Re: What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

#119

Post by ryandrake »

notyourday wrote: post #103
matchagaucho wrote: post #69

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Grueling is one issue. Financial security is another. Not knowing if your manager will give you 4 or 40 hours is stressful. Amazon measures everything. Their incentive compensation plans should be rewarding employees that exceed quota with daily bonuses. One-year of tenure should not be required to qualify for basic benefits. In short, these employees need to unionize and collectively bargain.

> Amazon measures everything. Their incentive compensation plans should be rewarding employees that exceed quota with daily bonuses. I'm guessing you have never worked under the quota system. Guess what happens when one meets a quota? He or she gets a quota increased. Guess what happens when he or she no longer meets a new quota? He or she gets fired. In a quota based system the goal of every employee is to hit the q…

Reminds me of Manna [1].

1: http://www.marshallbrain.com/manna1.htm

Re: What Amazon Does to Poor Cities

#120

Post by andrewjl »

lotsofpulp wrote: post #97
andrewjl wrote: post #80

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's interesting to see this reduction in labor demand is coupled with new lows in the unemployment rate. There's a shortage of labor but employers don't seem to be willing to pay more to incentivize more people to enter the workforce (which is partially reflected in the so called "shadow" unemployment rate, which is higher). An increase in the minimum wage will cause one of two things to happen, both net good IMO: e…

Because some work isn't that valuable, and if wages cause the price of that product to rise too much then consumers will forego it. Occupations that pay highly are usually more inelastic in their demand compared to price.

If so, why hasn't that work been automated away by now?
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