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If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

nytimes.com

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Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#61

Post by falcolas »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #12
jkldsadfaf wrote: post #8

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because you're monitoring someone constantly. Imagine if your manager sat behind you breathing on your neck while you coded. He has a pack of tic-tacs so his breath is fine. He crushes the tic tacs with his teeth everytime he thinks you're not working

So many, many workers are monitored by human supervisors already. Not shown to be significantly different.

Supervisors can't monitor every worker every single minute that they are on shift. Supervisors also have their own work to do, which further limits the direct supervision each worker receives.

On the flip side, these bands can monitor every worker every minute of the day. And even the top 10% of workers are likely to receive reprimands for having a bad day, be it a sore knee or being distracted because their children are acting oddly. There's no judgment involved when its automated like this - just numbers that have to be kept above a certain line.

Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#62

Post by yorwba »

usdghkasdghk wrote: post #43
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #9

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Millions of people wear a fitbit. I used to wear a watch (to regulate my work day). How many office workers wear a badge? Most of them. Not a problem

Do the employers of these millions of people have access to the fitbit data? And use it to decide on keeping them employed?

For athletes, I think that's likely. There all kinds of quantitative optimization of training regimes going on, and if someone can't adapt as desired it's likely that their career will be cut short.

Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#63

Post by Clubber »

booleandilemma wrote: post #51

According to a quick Google search, this story is being run by The New York Times, The Daily News, The Guardian, Fox, The Verge, Gizmodo, Engadget, and Cnet, among others. I can’t help but notice it’s not on The Washington Post. Has anyone done an analysis of the post to see if the number of anti-amazon stories they publish went down after Bezos bought it?

I haven't done an analysis, but I noticed they do an Amazon critical article now and then to show they aren't biased.

Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#64

Post by Clubber »

wiz21c wrote: post #30
Santosh83 wrote: post #3

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are you prepared to wear a bracelet when you work?

Yeah, one that strangles my wrist when it decides I slack too much or if I go the the WC too often...

Electric shock would be more effective.

Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#65

Post by falcolas »

ballenf wrote: post #20
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #2

They call this dystopian, but I don't get it. Why keep a slacker around when you have limited slots for workers? Why not measure and retain good workers? Somebody please try a little to see beyond the linkbait title of the OP. Knee-jerk anti-the-man comments aren't very helpful in digging into why this is a good or bad idea.

None of the attacks on your position really answer your question, which I think is a reasonable one. If I'm hiring someone to stack boxes, what's wrong with hiring and keeping the best box stackers? Why should I be limited in the non-discriminatory tools I use to measure such performance? The wristband isn't monitoring an employee's attitude or beliefs. If anything, the tool would make racism or favoritism generally…

If I bring you in to write code, what's wrong with hiring and keeping only people who write a certain amount of code every day?

Are you having a bad day because you're distracted? Too bad, you're receiving a reprimand for not meeting your quota.

Do you need to get up and walk around because your back is sore? Too bad, that's time you should be spending coding.

Are you stuck in the resolution of a problem? Too bad, prepare to be canned for repeatedly missing your quotas.

Time spent refining your tools? Nope, not allocated. Time spent learning? Nope, not allowed. Fixing a security issue unrelated to your code? You missed your quotas. Training the FNG? Sorry, but you didn't meet quota.

I hired you to write code, after all, and if you don't want to do that, I have a few dozen applications on my desk of people who do want to.

On a more meta note - these wristbands and things like them remove all judgement from the equation. Someone recovering from a hurt back is only viewed as unproductive for an extended period of time, and thus someone to fire. No matter what other things they do for the company, or how they performed prior to the injury.

Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#66

Post by Clubber »

yorwba wrote: post #62
usdghkasdghk wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do the employers of these millions of people have access to the fitbit data? And use it to decide on keeping them employed?

For athletes, I think that's likely. There all kinds of quantitative optimization of training regimes going on, and if someone can't adapt as desired it's likely that their career will be cut short.

Yes, but the incentives are different. I would be more willing to wear one if:

  1. The organization really has my best interests in mind.
  2. The organization paid me millions of dollars to work for them.
With Amazon, I suspect #1 isn't the case and we all know #2 isn't.

Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#67

Post by krapp »

king07828 wrote: post #54
harryf wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the measure of anything like this is whether you as "the boss" are willing to wear one too and make that data available to those work for you without restrictions. If you're willing to do that then OK - let's try this thing and see what happens.

Information asymmetry is a key concern that you have hit upon. Will a manager release truthful aggregate information, such as averages and standard deviations so that individuals can see for themselves how they stack up against the group? Will this information also be correlated for height, weight, and other physiological parameters? Or will a manager selectively hoard and release specific pieces of information to cr…

>Will a manager release truthful aggregate information, such as averages and standard deviations so that individuals can see for themselves how they stack up against the group?

At the FC where I work, managers printed metrics out from spreadsheets and posted them daily (ish) to encourage competition and productivity but there was no real way to verify numbers weren't being fudged, or that favoritism wasn't being shown.

Workers often won't know their error rate or accurate stow rate until they generate enough errors to trigger a warning, because only managers are allowed to see a worker's metrics. Amazon's policy is that an employee who follows procedure will never generate errors, and therefore, giving employees access to their own metrics is unnecessary - good employees won't need them, bad employees will either become good, or be fired. It's only recently that they've been able to see their stow rates as reflected by Amazon's own system, rather than a vague and inaccurate estimate.

>Or will a manager selectively hoard and release specific pieces of information to create fear, uncertainty, and doubt in the minds of the workers in an attempt to squeeze out more productivity?

Yes.

Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#68

Post by crdoconnor »

a_bevin wrote: post #39

Is it just me or does this sound like they're using the wristbands as a way to build up a better dataset to further optimize their warehouse robots? Externalities notwithstanding, these jobs surely won't exist in the very near future, right?

I noticed a flurry of Foxconn propaganda, reported in all the usual western media, that tried to make this argument about 7 years ago. They said that they had robots that would shortly render something like 800,000 factory workers obsolete.

It coincided with a period of worker unrest in their factories.

They didn't though. They now employ something like 400,000 more people than they did.

It was just a ploy to terrify Shenzhen factory workers.

The apparent abysmal failure of their "project" to replace all those people seems to have gone 100% unnoticed in the business press. Foxconn just forgot to issue that press release I guess.

I think back to that story and subsequent non-story every time I read the latest news article about "the robot takeover of our jobs that's just around the corner".

Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#69

Post by logfromblammo »

Clubber wrote: post #33
ballenf wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you've ever worked in such an environment, good workers welcome such measurement tools. So often slackers can befriend management and push off work on others without detection. It is very difficult to monitor performance in a fair and equitable manner without taking into account nepotism, racism, etc.

>good workers welcome such measurement tools. I find that hard to believe, at least a full time monitoring wrist band. Good workers like metrics, but of course, every metric can be gamed. They aren't as valuable as you might think they are.

Good workers expect to have good managers. Good managers can gauge the worth of their workers without resorting to rigid procedures with constant robotic surveillance.

If I am ordered to wear a monitoring wristband, I will naturally suspect that my manager is an idiot. The first test would likely to be to pair up with another worker and swap wristbands. Further along, try putting both wristbands on one wrist for short periods of time, such as when someone is using the bathroom.

I'd probably also try bracelets with magnets on them and wrapping the wristband in foil. If they are universally hated by the workers, spraying them all with histamine before the shift starts would result in visible skin irritation under the bands, and a video of said irritation posted to social media might get them withdrawn for a while.

Good workers like to be respected and valued as human beings. Treat them like fungible cogs at your own peril.

Re: If Workers Slack Off, the Wristband Will Know

#70

Post by yorwba »

Clubber wrote: post #66
yorwba wrote: post #62

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For athletes, I think that's likely. There all kinds of quantitative optimization of training regimes going on, and if someone can't adapt as desired it's likely that their career will be cut short.

Yes, but the incentives are different. I would be more willing to wear one if: 1. The organization really has my best interests in mind. 2. The organization paid me millions of dollars to work for them. With Amazon, I suspect #1 isn't the case and we all know #2 isn't.

Most athletes aren't playing in the big leagues and aren't paid millions of dollars. Frequently they are pushed to perform past their limits or shortly after an injury, so their best interests aren't always considered. Pretty much the most significant difference to Amazon employees would be that they got into the job because they enjoyed it.
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